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Well that's nice. Totally makes up for a theocratic dictator having their father chopped up. I guess they have no choice but to just accept it, because of the

Well that's nice. Totally makes up for a theocratic dictator having their father chopped up. I guess they have no choice but to just accept it, because of the same dictator. Can't believe this shitty government is our "ally". Fuck the Saudi Government.

chrisco255 7y ago
There's 195 countries on the planet. You want to go to war with every single one whose leaders have people arbitrarily killed...you'd need to go to war with most of them, including the United States itself.
- option 7y ago
  while your statement is technically true, the sa is the most disgusting state in the world. IMHO ideologically even farther from western democracies then north korea is
  - wahern 7y ago
    I find that statement ridiculous. Saudi Arabia is a theocratic society with an absolute monarch. The things that occur there may seem abhorrent, but they follow relatively strict norms. Capricious things occur, but even the monarch responds to internal political and cultural pressures in service to a nominally higher authority. North Korea is ruled by the capricious whim of a single person who makes the rules as he goes along, and whose decisions have led to multiple famines and other atrocities resulting in the deaths of millions of North Koreans, still ongoing. And Kim Jong-un doesn't need a cover up when he assassinates someone; he's a god incarnate. Have a little perspective. It's easier to criticize Saudi Arabia precisely because it's more like Western society than North Korea, even if that similarity is often illusory.
- sv123 7y ago
  You don't have to go to war with each of them, there are other options. And you definitely don't have to prop up said leaders with the worlds most advanced military hardware.
  - dmix 7y ago
    Iran managed to arm themselves very effectively without American help. There’s a whole lot of lesser evils which define plenty of diplomatic decision making in that region.
  - taxidump 7y ago
    You need to think like the leader of a nation, not like the leader of an advocacy group. This is a playing field most people can't comprehend.
    - patthebunny 7y ago
      Right, what lobbying group paid their bribes this year. Ah, military contractors are well up to date. Okay, lets toss them a few billion in Saudi weapons contracts. How did I do?
      - diminoten 7y ago
        Incredibly poorly. Nation states aren't supposed to have egos.
    - detcader 7y ago
      The idea that the rich and powerful breed are at another level than the commoners, and we can never aspire to the genius behind their choices, is not a new talking point but maybe one of the oldest.
    - davidw 7y ago
      > You need to think like the leader of a nation It'd sure be nice if we had someone in DC doing that...
- klyrs 7y ago
  Go to war with? No. There's a wide gulf between "close allies" and "at war." We're selling them arms, buying their oil, and trading intelligence with them.
  - logfromblammo 7y ago
    I can't help thinking that if the US were forced at ICBM-point to choose sides in the Saudi Arabia vs. Iran international rivalry, Iran would be the better choice, even after all the terrible history between Iran and the US. It's like fighting Christianity's Devil by making a blood pact with Ialchtaluogoloth, Inscrutable Lord of the Slime Pits From Beyond the Dead Stars. At least Lucifer can appreciate a finely tailored suit. If Saudi Arabia didn't have light, sweet oil reserves and control of the Hajj, they wouldn't have much of anything at all.
    - hluska 7y ago
      > It's like fighting Christianity's Devil by making a blood pact with Ialchtaluogoloth, Inscrutable Lord of the Slime Pits From Beyond the Dead Stars. At least Lucifer can appreciate a finely tailored suit. This is an excellent paragraph and I bet I would enjoy reading more of what you write. If you happen to blog, would you mind emailing me a link? My email address is in my profile.
- patthebunny 7y ago
  There is a wide gap between war and staunch ally. Like, we could stop supporting their genocide in Yemen. Could stop selling weapons to them period. Could stop buying their oil. Could start putting out sanctions. Could actually demand some accountability for their role in 9/11. Whole spectrum between what we have now and outright war.
- detcader 7y ago
  If our instinct is to jump from allying with a nation to being at war, we have accepted the most violent countries' axioms of how the world must work. Bush Jr's "either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists" mentality and policy have certainly sown some seeds.
PopeDotNinja 7y ago
I'm not proud of what the government here in America is doing to its own citizens. Prison population, border detainment, Guantanamo... The USA is imprisons over 2 million people. Our human rights record is not strong.
- patthebunny 7y ago
  I think you might be assuming I think more highly of the American government.
- soperj 7y ago
  Also not that far removed from the same sort of behaviour; Joe McCarthy.
rolltiide 7y ago
Financial compensation is an Islamic cleric and state compliant way to resolve deaths over there. Of course you can read the book one thousand different ways. The point is that it is nice they fulfilled that promise. edit: remember, their religious clerics can say whatever they want and thats the law in a theocracy. English wikipedia is not going to describe that adequately
- mcny 7y ago
  > The point is that it is nice they fulfilled that promise. In a free society, I'd have asked for for MBS' life under retributive justice. I wouldn't want him killed, just would want a much fairer diya (double digit share of Aramco?). The Wikipedia article says https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diya_(Islam) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diya_(Islam) > It only applies when victim's family want to compromise with the guilty party; otherwise qisas applies.
  - wahern 7y ago
    But it's not a free society. It's not only an Islamic society (a very distinct kind, with scriptural exegesis not lifted from Wikipedia), but an absolute monarchy as well. From a humanistic standpoint, the assassination was abhorrent. From an international politics and international law standpoint, intolerable. From the standpoint of a recently elevated absolute ruler suppressing dissent, diligent. As the previous poster said, at least they're paying benefits, even though it's all part of the cover up. From a Western, guilt-based moralist standpoint such benefits can seem like a slap in the face. From a Middle Eastern, honor-based moralist standpoint, it's the decent thing to do, regardless of what precipitated it.
alistproducer2 7y ago
In order to be legitimately upset with our government having"shitty allies", you first need to believe in the fiction that our government isn't shitty itself. A quick browse through history should relieve of such a fantasy. In fact you don't need to look at history. The policy of illegal sanctions begun under the last administration, and now the illegal blockade of Venezuela (which is resulting in the deaths of many civilians) should have you nice and clear-eyed about your government. Once you understand that our government's primary function is to protect and expand markets for the capital class, you cease to be surprised or confused by it's actions. Google the coup instigated in behalf of United fruit. That was over 100 years ago, so none of this is new. Stop reading the New York times or any other mainstream publication for foreign policy opinion or news. Try alternative sites like greyzoneproject or truthdig if you want decent news.
- not_a_cop75 7y ago
  You should really define shitty. What you are saying is you don't particularly like a country without the ability to actually describe why that is. It's comes off feeling like someone's opinion of their favorite sports team. Certainly, the countries you like do things differently than the ones you want, but you won't even highlight those differences. No, instead it's only bad and good. I'm frankly tired of people that can't describe in real thoughts what makes something great or terrible without falling back on the words that a two year old might make use of to describe their day. Get creative. Go on a verbal tirade and tell me how you really feel. But please stop compressing your thoughts down to good, bad and shitty. If you really want to communicate, please do so. You don't like capitalism? Because you're not making the money? What are the real reasons? You don't like communism? Because of the Gulag Archipelago? Be clear.
  - alistproducer2 7y ago
    What part of instigated coups on behalf of a fruit company and illegally killing people I'm Venezuela is unclear? Cause I literally typed those things in my parent comment. Those seem to me to be valid reasons for having issues with a government. It's ironic that a comment trying to persuade others to "get creative" is the comment that seems suspiciously like copypasta.
not_a_cop75 7y ago
One thing you should quickly learn is that "ally" does not mean "friend". An ally has similar enough goals to most of the time work together in those goals that are the same, and also to try not to encroach when goals are different.
dang 7y ago
Can you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebaity comments to HN? I'm afraid you've already done it a lot, and it's not what HN is for. As you'll see if you review the site guidelines, we're trying for something a bit better than internet default here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- patthebunny 7y ago
  Unsubstantive? Flame bait? A man is dead. He was murdered at embassy, then they chopped him up to make him easier to move. You aren’t tying for better than the internet default. You don’t want anything approaching open discussion or substantive discussion. You want bland inoffensive tripe. You want to have a bunch of people who can sit around discussing how we work will change the world. A man is dead. He was murdered by a regime that has no respect for human rights. A regime that has funded terrorism. A regime currently trying to carry out genocide in Yemen. A regime propped up in no small part by American money. If you don’t see any substantive discussion to be had then maybe you need to break a from tech for a little while so you can get your head out of your ass.
  - dang 7y ago
    Ok, since you don't seem to want to use the site as intended, I've banned this account for the time being. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They are at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

chrisco255 7y ago

There's 195 countries on the planet. You want to go to war with every single one whose leaders have people arbitrarily killed...you'd need to go to war with most of them, including the United States itself.

option 7y ago
while your statement is technically true, the sa is the most disgusting state in the world. IMHO ideologically even farther from western democracies then north korea is
- wahern 7y ago
  I find that statement ridiculous. Saudi Arabia is a theocratic society with an absolute monarch. The things that occur there may seem abhorrent, but they follow relatively strict norms. Capricious things occur, but even the monarch responds to internal political and cultural pressures in service to a nominally higher authority. North Korea is ruled by the capricious whim of a single person who makes the rules as he goes along, and whose decisions have led to multiple famines and other atrocities resulting in the deaths of millions of North Koreans, still ongoing. And Kim Jong-un doesn't need a cover up when he assassinates someone; he's a god incarnate. Have a little perspective. It's easier to criticize Saudi Arabia precisely because it's more like Western society than North Korea, even if that similarity is often illusory.
sv123 7y ago
You don't have to go to war with each of them, there are other options. And you definitely don't have to prop up said leaders with the worlds most advanced military hardware.
- dmix 7y ago
  Iran managed to arm themselves very effectively without American help. There’s a whole lot of lesser evils which define plenty of diplomatic decision making in that region.
- taxidump 7y ago
  You need to think like the leader of a nation, not like the leader of an advocacy group. This is a playing field most people can't comprehend.
  - patthebunny 7y ago
    Right, what lobbying group paid their bribes this year. Ah, military contractors are well up to date. Okay, lets toss them a few billion in Saudi weapons contracts. How did I do?
    - diminoten 7y ago
      Incredibly poorly. Nation states aren't supposed to have egos.
  - detcader 7y ago
    The idea that the rich and powerful breed are at another level than the commoners, and we can never aspire to the genius behind their choices, is not a new talking point but maybe one of the oldest.
  - davidw 7y ago
    > You need to think like the leader of a nation It'd sure be nice if we had someone in DC doing that...
klyrs 7y ago
Go to war with? No. There's a wide gulf between "close allies" and "at war." We're selling them arms, buying their oil, and trading intelligence with them.
- logfromblammo 7y ago
  I can't help thinking that if the US were forced at ICBM-point to choose sides in the Saudi Arabia vs. Iran international rivalry, Iran would be the better choice, even after all the terrible history between Iran and the US. It's like fighting Christianity's Devil by making a blood pact with Ialchtaluogoloth, Inscrutable Lord of the Slime Pits From Beyond the Dead Stars. At least Lucifer can appreciate a finely tailored suit. If Saudi Arabia didn't have light, sweet oil reserves and control of the Hajj, they wouldn't have much of anything at all.
  - hluska 7y ago
    > It's like fighting Christianity's Devil by making a blood pact with Ialchtaluogoloth, Inscrutable Lord of the Slime Pits From Beyond the Dead Stars. At least Lucifer can appreciate a finely tailored suit. This is an excellent paragraph and I bet I would enjoy reading more of what you write. If you happen to blog, would you mind emailing me a link? My email address is in my profile.
patthebunny 7y ago
There is a wide gap between war and staunch ally. Like, we could stop supporting their genocide in Yemen. Could stop selling weapons to them period. Could stop buying their oil. Could start putting out sanctions. Could actually demand some accountability for their role in 9/11. Whole spectrum between what we have now and outright war.
detcader 7y ago
If our instinct is to jump from allying with a nation to being at war, we have accepted the most violent countries' axioms of how the world must work. Bush Jr's "either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists" mentality and policy have certainly sown some seeds.

PopeDotNinja 7y ago

I'm not proud of what the government here in America is doing to its own citizens. Prison population, border detainment, Guantanamo... The USA is imprisons over 2 million people. Our human rights record is not strong.

patthebunny 7y ago
I think you might be assuming I think more highly of the American government.
soperj 7y ago
Also not that far removed from the same sort of behaviour; Joe McCarthy.

rolltiide 7y ago

Financial compensation is an Islamic cleric and state compliant way to resolve deaths over there. Of course you can read the book one thousand different ways. The point is that it is nice they fulfilled that promise. edit: remember, their religious clerics can say whatever they want and thats the law in a theocracy. English wikipedia is not going to describe that adequately

mcny 7y ago
> The point is that it is nice they fulfilled that promise. In a free society, I'd have asked for for MBS' life under retributive justice. I wouldn't want him killed, just would want a much fairer diya (double digit share of Aramco?). The Wikipedia article says https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diya_(Islam) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diya_(Islam) > It only applies when victim's family want to compromise with the guilty party; otherwise qisas applies.
- wahern 7y ago
  But it's not a free society. It's not only an Islamic society (a very distinct kind, with scriptural exegesis not lifted from Wikipedia), but an absolute monarchy as well. From a humanistic standpoint, the assassination was abhorrent. From an international politics and international law standpoint, intolerable. From the standpoint of a recently elevated absolute ruler suppressing dissent, diligent. As the previous poster said, at least they're paying benefits, even though it's all part of the cover up. From a Western, guilt-based moralist standpoint such benefits can seem like a slap in the face. From a Middle Eastern, honor-based moralist standpoint, it's the decent thing to do, regardless of what precipitated it.

alistproducer2 7y ago

In order to be legitimately upset with our government having"shitty allies", you first need to believe in the fiction that our government isn't shitty itself. A quick browse through history should relieve of such a fantasy. In fact you don't need to look at history. The policy of illegal sanctions begun under the last administration, and now the illegal blockade of Venezuela (which is resulting in the deaths of many civilians) should have you nice and clear-eyed about your government. Once you understand that our government's primary function is to protect and expand markets for the capital class, you cease to be surprised or confused by it's actions. Google the coup instigated in behalf of United fruit. That was over 100 years ago, so none of this is new. Stop reading the New York times or any other mainstream publication for foreign policy opinion or news. Try alternative sites like greyzoneproject or truthdig if you want decent news.

not_a_cop75 7y ago
You should really define shitty. What you are saying is you don't particularly like a country without the ability to actually describe why that is. It's comes off feeling like someone's opinion of their favorite sports team. Certainly, the countries you like do things differently than the ones you want, but you won't even highlight those differences. No, instead it's only bad and good. I'm frankly tired of people that can't describe in real thoughts what makes something great or terrible without falling back on the words that a two year old might make use of to describe their day. Get creative. Go on a verbal tirade and tell me how you really feel. But please stop compressing your thoughts down to good, bad and shitty. If you really want to communicate, please do so. You don't like capitalism? Because you're not making the money? What are the real reasons? You don't like communism? Because of the Gulag Archipelago? Be clear.
- alistproducer2 7y ago
  What part of instigated coups on behalf of a fruit company and illegally killing people I'm Venezuela is unclear? Cause I literally typed those things in my parent comment. Those seem to me to be valid reasons for having issues with a government. It's ironic that a comment trying to persuade others to "get creative" is the comment that seems suspiciously like copypasta.

not_a_cop75 7y ago

One thing you should quickly learn is that "ally" does not mean "friend". An ally has similar enough goals to most of the time work together in those goals that are the same, and also to try not to encroach when goals are different.

dang 7y ago

Can you please stop posting unsubstantive and/or flamebaity comments to HN? I'm afraid you've already done it a lot, and it's not what HN is for. As you'll see if you review the site guidelines, we're trying for something a bit better than internet default here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

patthebunny 7y ago
Unsubstantive? Flame bait? A man is dead. He was murdered at embassy, then they chopped him up to make him easier to move. You aren’t tying for better than the internet default. You don’t want anything approaching open discussion or substantive discussion. You want bland inoffensive tripe. You want to have a bunch of people who can sit around discussing how we work will change the world. A man is dead. He was murdered by a regime that has no respect for human rights. A regime that has funded terrorism. A regime currently trying to carry out genocide in Yemen. A regime propped up in no small part by American money. If you don’t see any substantive discussion to be had then maybe you need to break a from tech for a little while so you can get your head out of your ass.
- dang 7y ago
  Ok, since you don't seem to want to use the site as intended, I've banned this account for the time being. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They are at https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.