5 ms·

As a co-creator of a language (Julia) with a name that is feminine in most of the world, let me give some friendly advice regarding the name "Ballerina", which

As a co-creator of a language (Julia) with a name that is feminine in most of the world, let me give some friendly advice regarding the name "Ballerina", which means "a female ballet dancer". The way you talk about Ballerina comes off rather tone deaf to gender issues. In the post linked here and elsewhere on the language website, the female ballerina—and she is definitely a she—is talked about as an object of grace and beauty to be appreciated by the programmer, who is presumed to be male. In one cartoon on the site, the male programmer is getting a massage from the helpful, friendly, female Ballerina while he does his programming work. And then there is language like this (pointed out by @yoz): > That obviously starts with the Enterprise Integrator team as that is where this baby was flirted with, dated and then conceived This is really damaging: the Ballerina in question is referred to as "baby", she is flirted with and then conceived—weird because that's an unusual order of events, but I guess this means you knocked her up and then had a baby with her? I can't continue, even dissecting this sentence feels creepy. Just don't do this. It's weird and disturbing and it will put off most women and many men who might otherwise consider using or contributing to your language. Consider renaming the language to "Ballet", which is distinctly non-gendered and doesn't have these issues but still suggests the grace and beauty you are inspired by and aspiring to. Seriously, consider this. Yes, it's late in the game (post 1.0) and you like the name you have, but it's close enough to the current name that you won't lose much branding and you can keep the same nice logo that you already have. If you are going keep the name Ballerina, you cannot sexualize the name and you should have a rule that others in the community not do so either. Julia has a specific rule in the code of conduct saying "do not sexualize the name of the project"—we didn't originally think we'd need to say that, but it turns out people just cannot resist saying creepy, sexual shit about anything they perceive to be feminine.

hombre_fatal 7y ago
Honestly, this reads like the comment of someone who, themself, can't handle feminine/maternal naming nor material. For example, a motherly massage to a gender-amorphous cartoon in a chair is your hot-button? In an alternate dimension, this post is written about a language released in 2019 named "Python", an obvious phallic symbol. How are women supposed to take a programming language seriously that reminds them of a dong?! -- That's how ridiculous this "takedown" looks to me. Definitely takes guts to name a programming language "Ballerina" in 2019, though. And probably not worth the hassle if these comments are to tell us anything. We probably agree there.
- vinceguidry 7y ago
  It reads to me like someone whose had to deal with a lot of this: > —we didn't originally think we'd need to say that, but it turns out people just cannot resist saying creepy, sexual shit about anything they perceive to be feminine. Personally speaking, I knew exactly what 90% of the comments were going to be about just from the front page. Seeing that the dev team isn't from the US explained it, but yeah, it has to be hard out there for non-US teams to submit to HN.
- jmull 7y ago
  The previous poster is giving good advice. I can tell you don't see it, but there are a multiple aspects of the ballerina site that will offend many of the people they presumably want to engage. I assume that's unintentional. The best thing for them to do is to understand the problems, fix them, and apologize to the offended people. Dismissing the words of the person explaining the problems and providing good advice on dealing with them is a good way to remain frustrated and fail.
s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
It's a name, calm down. This is a terrible slippery slope we found ourselves falling down. We're about at the bottom of the hill where nothing can ever be said.
- Vivtek 7y ago
  You see the part where he's speaking from experience?
  - s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
    Yes, he handled his experience wrong in my opinion.
jclark_th 7y ago
Thank you for your comments. Both the cartoon and the sentence you highlighted have been fixed. We want to create an environment where everybody feels welcome. Your rule about not sexualizing the name seems like an excellent idea.
- StefanKarpinski 7y ago
  Glad that feedback was useful. I know it’s not a thing to consider casually, but please do start a real discussion about changing the name to Ballet—deciding not to is a viable outcome, of course, but do have the discussion. It could save you a lot of trouble over time. Even if it seems too late, I think it’s one of those things that will seem in hindsight that it was actually very changeable at this point in time.
  - sanjiva 7y ago
    Ada was named after Ada Lovelace too. Many may not know that it was a woman's name (and of course few program in Ada; we certainly hope for a better outcome than that!). I'm sorry but I cannot accept the argument that because its a feminine word its not an appropriate name for the language. Gender balance has been a problem for this industry and making it so all names are male so people won't feel bad to say they like it is ridiculous. I worked hard in WSO2 to create an open workplace for women and 30% engineers are women - so it is possible to make it better if you try hard. Isolating tech to male-only names is not the solution. As James noted, I updated the blog I wrote (even though the words were not meant the way you presented them) to remove that offending bit. And indeed your points about incorporating "do not sexualize the name" are great and we'll put them into our terms of conduct.
    - StefanKarpinski 7y ago
      There’s nothing wrong with a feminine name, just be aware of the issues. The name Ballet would avoid many of those issues outright, lessen the need to have such a rule, and seems like it might be a better name anyway—it’s shorter and phrases like “I love Ballet” and “we used Ballet” work. It’s your project, of course, it just seems a conversation worth having.

hombre_fatal 7y ago

Honestly, this reads like the comment of someone who, themself, can't handle feminine/maternal naming nor material. For example, a motherly massage to a gender-amorphous cartoon in a chair is your hot-button? In an alternate dimension, this post is written about a language released in 2019 named "Python", an obvious phallic symbol. How are women supposed to take a programming language seriously that reminds them of a dong?! -- That's how ridiculous this "takedown" looks to me. Definitely takes guts to name a programming language "Ballerina" in 2019, though. And probably not worth the hassle if these comments are to tell us anything. We probably agree there.

vinceguidry 7y ago
It reads to me like someone whose had to deal with a lot of this: > —we didn't originally think we'd need to say that, but it turns out people just cannot resist saying creepy, sexual shit about anything they perceive to be feminine. Personally speaking, I knew exactly what 90% of the comments were going to be about just from the front page. Seeing that the dev team isn't from the US explained it, but yeah, it has to be hard out there for non-US teams to submit to HN.
jmull 7y ago
The previous poster is giving good advice. I can tell you don't see it, but there are a multiple aspects of the ballerina site that will offend many of the people they presumably want to engage. I assume that's unintentional. The best thing for them to do is to understand the problems, fix them, and apologize to the offended people. Dismissing the words of the person explaining the problems and providing good advice on dealing with them is a good way to remain frustrated and fail.

s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago

It's a name, calm down. This is a terrible slippery slope we found ourselves falling down. We're about at the bottom of the hill where nothing can ever be said.

Vivtek 7y ago
You see the part where he's speaking from experience?
- s_y_n_t_a_x 7y ago
  Yes, he handled his experience wrong in my opinion.

jclark_th 7y ago

Thank you for your comments. Both the cartoon and the sentence you highlighted have been fixed. We want to create an environment where everybody feels welcome. Your rule about not sexualizing the name seems like an excellent idea.

StefanKarpinski 7y ago
Glad that feedback was useful. I know it’s not a thing to consider casually, but please do start a real discussion about changing the name to Ballet—deciding not to is a viable outcome, of course, but do have the discussion. It could save you a lot of trouble over time. Even if it seems too late, I think it’s one of those things that will seem in hindsight that it was actually very changeable at this point in time.
- sanjiva 7y ago
  Ada was named after Ada Lovelace too. Many may not know that it was a woman's name (and of course few program in Ada; we certainly hope for a better outcome than that!). I'm sorry but I cannot accept the argument that because its a feminine word its not an appropriate name for the language. Gender balance has been a problem for this industry and making it so all names are male so people won't feel bad to say they like it is ridiculous. I worked hard in WSO2 to create an open workplace for women and 30% engineers are women - so it is possible to make it better if you try hard. Isolating tech to male-only names is not the solution. As James noted, I updated the blog I wrote (even though the words were not meant the way you presented them) to remove that offending bit. And indeed your points about incorporating "do not sexualize the name" are great and we'll put them into our terms of conduct.
  - StefanKarpinski 7y ago
    There’s nothing wrong with a feminine name, just be aware of the issues. The name Ballet would avoid many of those issues outright, lessen the need to have such a rule, and seems like it might be a better name anyway—it’s shorter and phrases like “I love Ballet” and “we used Ballet” work. It’s your project, of course, it just seems a conversation worth having.