4 ms·

That's true, but yet people still want to drive for Uber/Lyft. Perhaps people are just stupid and don't understand what they are getting into (though, that's a

That's true, but yet people still want to drive for Uber/Lyft. Perhaps people are just stupid and don't understand what they are getting into (though, that's a _lot_ of people)... or maybe they truly don't mind/don't care about the wages. I'm sure there are 3rd and 4th options, but regardless--you can piss on people's business models all you want, but they don't force anyone to work for them.

birdyrooster 7y ago
The issue behind Uber and Lyft is not compulsory work. The problem is that the depreciation, injury risk, and opportunity cost of the job is misunderstood and people are being taken advantage of. In your argument, no one is forcing them to be taken advantage of and our society should eat the cost. You could use your same argument to say that businesses don’t need to legally pay minimum wage since someone is willing to take less. These conditions are bad for everybody and create a depressing effect on earnings for workers.
- PorterDuff 7y ago
  Couldn't you simply require Uberlyft to run potential drivers through a quick course on depreciation, injury risk, opportunity cost? That's really not a bad idea generally. Give them full information and then treat them like adults.
  - minikites 7y ago
    Why would they tell the truth? https://thinkprogress.org/mcdonalds-tells-workers-to-budget-by-getting-a-second-job-and-turning-off-their-heat-c3bce1526c1e/ https://thinkprogress.org/mcdonalds-tells-workers-to-budget-... >McDonalds has partnered with Visa to launch a website to help its low-wage workers making an average $8.25 an hour to budget. But while the site is clearly meant to illustrate that McDonalds workers should be able to live on their meager wages, it actually underscores exactly how hard it is for a low-paid fast food worker to get by. >The site includes a sample “budget journal” for McDonalds’ employees that offers a laughably inaccurate view of what it’s like to budget on a minimum wage job. Not only does the budget leave a spot open for “second job,” it also gives wholly unreasonable estimates for employees’ costs: $20 a month for health care, $0 for heating, and $600 a month for rent. It does not include any budgeted money for food or clothing.
claudiawerner 7y ago
This discussion is only orthogonal to the point about nobody being forced to work for Uber/Lyft/whatever else. Nobody is contending that people are being forced - therefore the discussion focuses around other questions, i.e. the core tenets of liberal egalitarianism, the nature of consent (also a metaphysical question), domination and subsumption under capital. For example, this book review was posted on HN a few weeks ago: https://ndpr.nd.edu/news/private-government-how-employers-rule-our-lives-and-why-we-dont-talk-about-it/ https://ndpr.nd.edu/news/private-government-how-employers-ru...
Miner49er 7y ago
Well, they maybe aren't forced to work for Uber/Lyft specifically, but they are forced to work for someone. I guess for most Uber/Lyft is preferable to other options, but that doesn't mean that Uber/Lyft aren't bad, it's just that other jobs are worse. But I'm sure there's many who really only have Uber/Lyft as an option. They are forced to work for them. They need a 2nd job, and they need a job that provides the flexibility in schedule that Uber/Lyft does. There's really not any other options if that's what is needed.
klarstrup 7y ago
The extremely low barrier to entry for their workforce is a part of their business model, and what by extension forces those of no other choice to subject themselves to it.
josho 7y ago
Some of the drivers that I’ve spoken with have shared that they have no other choice of job. Though I’m rather annoyed at all this anecdotal data. If the bill is seriously being considered then surely there will be data to clarify what the reality is for the drivers.
throwaway_law 7y ago
>That's true, but yet people still want to drive for Uber/Lyft. Well if you leave people out in the desert with nothing but a bottle of urine, they will drink it...that doesn't mean they want to drink urine. There is a reason we have safety standard, minimum wages and child labor laws. From the sound of it you seem to argue those regulations are to protect workers from themselves, after all no one forced children to work for penny's a day in dangerous environments...but the reality is corporations make the markets not workers and so regulations are to curb those in power whose base instinct is to exploit others for their gains.

birdyrooster 7y ago

The issue behind Uber and Lyft is not compulsory work. The problem is that the depreciation, injury risk, and opportunity cost of the job is misunderstood and people are being taken advantage of. In your argument, no one is forcing them to be taken advantage of and our society should eat the cost. You could use your same argument to say that businesses don’t need to legally pay minimum wage since someone is willing to take less. These conditions are bad for everybody and create a depressing effect on earnings for workers.

PorterDuff 7y ago
Couldn't you simply require Uberlyft to run potential drivers through a quick course on depreciation, injury risk, opportunity cost? That's really not a bad idea generally. Give them full information and then treat them like adults.
- minikites 7y ago
  Why would they tell the truth? https://thinkprogress.org/mcdonalds-tells-workers-to-budget-by-getting-a-second-job-and-turning-off-their-heat-c3bce1526c1e/ https://thinkprogress.org/mcdonalds-tells-workers-to-budget-... >McDonalds has partnered with Visa to launch a website to help its low-wage workers making an average $8.25 an hour to budget. But while the site is clearly meant to illustrate that McDonalds workers should be able to live on their meager wages, it actually underscores exactly how hard it is for a low-paid fast food worker to get by. >The site includes a sample “budget journal” for McDonalds’ employees that offers a laughably inaccurate view of what it’s like to budget on a minimum wage job. Not only does the budget leave a spot open for “second job,” it also gives wholly unreasonable estimates for employees’ costs: $20 a month for health care, $0 for heating, and $600 a month for rent. It does not include any budgeted money for food or clothing.

claudiawerner 7y ago

This discussion is only orthogonal to the point about nobody being forced to work for Uber/Lyft/whatever else. Nobody is contending that people are being forced - therefore the discussion focuses around other questions, i.e. the core tenets of liberal egalitarianism, the nature of consent (also a metaphysical question), domination and subsumption under capital. For example, this book review was posted on HN a few weeks ago: https://ndpr.nd.edu/news/private-government-how-employers-rule-our-lives-and-why-we-dont-talk-about-it/ https://ndpr.nd.edu/news/private-government-how-employers-ru...

Miner49er 7y ago

Well, they maybe aren't forced to work for Uber/Lyft specifically, but they are forced to work for someone. I guess for most Uber/Lyft is preferable to other options, but that doesn't mean that Uber/Lyft aren't bad, it's just that other jobs are worse. But I'm sure there's many who really only have Uber/Lyft as an option. They are forced to work for them. They need a 2nd job, and they need a job that provides the flexibility in schedule that Uber/Lyft does. There's really not any other options if that's what is needed.

klarstrup 7y ago

The extremely low barrier to entry for their workforce is a part of their business model, and what by extension forces those of no other choice to subject themselves to it.

josho 7y ago

Some of the drivers that I’ve spoken with have shared that they have no other choice of job. Though I’m rather annoyed at all this anecdotal data. If the bill is seriously being considered then surely there will be data to clarify what the reality is for the drivers.

throwaway_law 7y ago

>That's true, but yet people still want to drive for Uber/Lyft. Well if you leave people out in the desert with nothing but a bottle of urine, they will drink it...that doesn't mean they want to drink urine. There is a reason we have safety standard, minimum wages and child labor laws. From the sound of it you seem to argue those regulations are to protect workers from themselves, after all no one forced children to work for penny's a day in dangerous environments...but the reality is corporations make the markets not workers and so regulations are to curb those in power whose base instinct is to exploit others for their gains.