6 ms·

I wonder when companies will just stop starting up in CA. It seems like they could just operate in another state and everything would be fine. You'd find plenty

I wonder when companies will just stop starting up in CA. It seems like they could just operate in another state and everything would be fine. You'd find plenty of programmers in a place like the NC research triangle.

maxaf 7y ago
This is a question of ethics, not domicile. Any company founded on the premise of an unethical and harmful business model that externalizes all of its costs deserves to be put down the same way.
- AJ007 7y ago
  Releasing all of these drivers in to the general workforce could reduce wage pressure employers are feeling right now. While that might be the more ethical thing to do, no one else is going to benefit besides employers who want cheap employees.
  - maxaf 7y ago
    Simply shutting down the business isn’t the only possible outcome, nor the most desirable. The mere fact that Uber’s current business model is unethical doesn’t imply that it’s also incorrigible. Hire drivers as employees, pay Uber management roughly what a SV software engineer makes, and raise prices to compensate for the difference in order to become somewhat profitable, like a real business. The presumption that customers will simply stop using Uber is either naive or purposefully misleading, I really can’t tell which.
- JeffL 7y ago
  How is Uber unethical? They aren't forcing anyone to do anything. Maybe you could say they are fraudulent because the contractors don't understand the true costs/benefits of providing their own car, but isn't that a bit paternalistic and treating people as dumber than they really are?
jrumbut 7y ago
As they do that, NC will become what CA is today. It's pretty clear that NC has become a different state already compared to the one that used to send Jesse Helms to the Senate not too long ago, just as CA changed from the home state of Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan to what it is today.
nvahalik 7y ago
CA is not only a beautiful place to live, but the single place around which tech gravitates. There are many companies now starting up in places around the US. The funny thing is that nowadays you don't even need a real physical presence to get things done.
lotsofpulp 7y ago
>It seems like they could just operate in another state and everything would be fine I've heard this for a long time, and yet the most profitable companies continue to be concentrated in a select few HCOL areas that have comparatively better rights for workers.
- bobwaycott 7y ago
  > ... the most profitable companies continue to be concentrated in a select few HCOL areas that have comparatively better rights for workers. It's rather odd, then, that these profitable companies keep reusing the same playbook—create companies whose value depends on undermining and/or ignoring workers' rights/protections, particularly by depending overwhelmingly upon placing workers in positions where they have to choose between exercising and enjoying these better rights or earning an income. It's almost like the people creating these companies don't think they have any sort of legal, social, or ethical obligation to respect and perhaps improve workers' rights and conditions, as well as avoid shifting the burdens of their business model onto their "contractors". It'd be pretty awesome if these profitable companies would make it part of their core mission to be better than their competitors and peers where their labor practices and outlooks are concerned. Of course, they probably wouldn't even be profitable/highly valued in the first place if they were actually employing people at fair wages and treating them as first-class members of the companies. I'll be the first to recognize the incredible convenience of Uber, Lyft, et al. And as a person who has never even paid attention to the cost of a ride—or when I have, summarily forgotten about it minutes later—I would feel infinitely happier being a customer if I knew the driver wasn't feeling obligated to drive for both companies just to maximize their income potential for whichever one has the next ride—because that is the typical answer I get from drivers on the few occasions I use either service and directly ask them about it when I notice they drive for both services.
  - lotsofpulp 7y ago
    >It's almost like the people creating these companies don't think they have any sort of legal, social, or ethical obligation to respect and perhaps improve workers' rights and conditions How can a private company accomplish this? Haven't consumers proven that they choose to purchase from a competitor that offers the same services/products at a lower price due to not offering the same benefits or conditions at work? If Uber took on this responsibility, then why wouldn't people just switch to using Lyft? The only way it makes sense to me is if the government mandates certain work conditions/benefits/quality of life to everyone.
bryanlarsen 7y ago
It's a common assertion that worker's rights (most notably the illegality of non-compete agreements) are the reason that Silicon Valley beat out Boston and other likely candidates.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  Beat out Boston for what? SV, NYC, Boston, DC and other HCOL metros are places you go to make large amounts money (in varying industries depending on the city) while hating every second of it. Some people have an exit plan. Many more go "oh crap, we need to move somewhere with good schools" and then wind up in the suburbs.
james-mcelwain 7y ago
Not all tech companies rely on exploitative labor practices.
wheelerwj 7y ago
never. California is the 5th largest economy in the world so choosing not to operate in California would be like giving up on a huge piece of the market. All that will happen is that the cost of goods will increase to cover the cost of increased regulation. This may increase competition somewhat but the size of the CA market will almost certainly make up for it.

maxaf 7y ago

This is a question of ethics, not domicile. Any company founded on the premise of an unethical and harmful business model that externalizes all of its costs deserves to be put down the same way.

AJ007 7y ago
Releasing all of these drivers in to the general workforce could reduce wage pressure employers are feeling right now. While that might be the more ethical thing to do, no one else is going to benefit besides employers who want cheap employees.
- maxaf 7y ago
  Simply shutting down the business isn’t the only possible outcome, nor the most desirable. The mere fact that Uber’s current business model is unethical doesn’t imply that it’s also incorrigible. Hire drivers as employees, pay Uber management roughly what a SV software engineer makes, and raise prices to compensate for the difference in order to become somewhat profitable, like a real business. The presumption that customers will simply stop using Uber is either naive or purposefully misleading, I really can’t tell which.
JeffL 7y ago
How is Uber unethical? They aren't forcing anyone to do anything. Maybe you could say they are fraudulent because the contractors don't understand the true costs/benefits of providing their own car, but isn't that a bit paternalistic and treating people as dumber than they really are?

jrumbut 7y ago

As they do that, NC will become what CA is today. It's pretty clear that NC has become a different state already compared to the one that used to send Jesse Helms to the Senate not too long ago, just as CA changed from the home state of Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan to what it is today.

nvahalik 7y ago

CA is not only a beautiful place to live, but the single place around which tech gravitates. There are many companies now starting up in places around the US. The funny thing is that nowadays you don't even need a real physical presence to get things done.

lotsofpulp 7y ago

>It seems like they could just operate in another state and everything would be fine I've heard this for a long time, and yet the most profitable companies continue to be concentrated in a select few HCOL areas that have comparatively better rights for workers.

bobwaycott 7y ago
> ... the most profitable companies continue to be concentrated in a select few HCOL areas that have comparatively better rights for workers. It's rather odd, then, that these profitable companies keep reusing the same playbook—create companies whose value depends on undermining and/or ignoring workers' rights/protections, particularly by depending overwhelmingly upon placing workers in positions where they have to choose between exercising and enjoying these better rights or earning an income. It's almost like the people creating these companies don't think they have any sort of legal, social, or ethical obligation to respect and perhaps improve workers' rights and conditions, as well as avoid shifting the burdens of their business model onto their "contractors". It'd be pretty awesome if these profitable companies would make it part of their core mission to be better than their competitors and peers where their labor practices and outlooks are concerned. Of course, they probably wouldn't even be profitable/highly valued in the first place if they were actually employing people at fair wages and treating them as first-class members of the companies. I'll be the first to recognize the incredible convenience of Uber, Lyft, et al. And as a person who has never even paid attention to the cost of a ride—or when I have, summarily forgotten about it minutes later—I would feel infinitely happier being a customer if I knew the driver wasn't feeling obligated to drive for both companies just to maximize their income potential for whichever one has the next ride—because that is the typical answer I get from drivers on the few occasions I use either service and directly ask them about it when I notice they drive for both services.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  >It's almost like the people creating these companies don't think they have any sort of legal, social, or ethical obligation to respect and perhaps improve workers' rights and conditions How can a private company accomplish this? Haven't consumers proven that they choose to purchase from a competitor that offers the same services/products at a lower price due to not offering the same benefits or conditions at work? If Uber took on this responsibility, then why wouldn't people just switch to using Lyft? The only way it makes sense to me is if the government mandates certain work conditions/benefits/quality of life to everyone.

bryanlarsen 7y ago

It's a common assertion that worker's rights (most notably the illegality of non-compete agreements) are the reason that Silicon Valley beat out Boston and other likely candidates.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
Beat out Boston for what? SV, NYC, Boston, DC and other HCOL metros are places you go to make large amounts money (in varying industries depending on the city) while hating every second of it. Some people have an exit plan. Many more go "oh crap, we need to move somewhere with good schools" and then wind up in the suburbs.

james-mcelwain 7y ago

Not all tech companies rely on exploitative labor practices.

wheelerwj 7y ago

never. California is the 5th largest economy in the world so choosing not to operate in California would be like giving up on a huge piece of the market. All that will happen is that the cost of goods will increase to cover the cost of increased regulation. This may increase competition somewhat but the size of the CA market will almost certainly make up for it.