4 ms·

Just wondering...if the dinos had survived, would they have evolved higher intelligence and complex societies or would they be similar to modern reptiles/crocs/

by hos234 7y ago

Just wondering...if the dinos had survived, would they have evolved higher intelligence and complex societies or would they be similar to modern reptiles/crocs/turtles and fish(which are as old no?) in terms of intelligence?

astannard 7y ago
Well plenty of similar animals that were around at the same time such as Crocodiles have not. Unless crocs reside in our sewers watching, waiting and plotting our downfall
nikofeyn 7y ago
maybe? but in my non-expert opinion, probably not. intelligence doesn't seem to be correlated with the age of the species or recent lineage from what i understand. in the water, sharks are extremely old, almost reaching back to the dinosaur ages, but they are wrecked in intelligence by orcas, who came much later. plus, intelligence, or at least the further development of society and technology is solely due to the ability to manipulate objects. for example, i strongly believe that if you took an orca brain and gave it human-like manipulation tools and moved it to land that you would have a homosapiens competitor.
DCKing 7y ago
This may sound like nitpicking, but it isn't: the dinos have survived. All birds are dinosaurs. In fact, birds are extremely closely related to the dinosaurs that were long conjectured to have the highest cognitive abilities [1]. Some birds arguably have higher intelligence and form complex societies. But it was the primate group that developed the "most complex" society. This despite the fact that birds like primates are visually oriented, highly vocalized, take extensive care of their young, and many are already adopted to live in complex societies. It could be that the manual dexterity of primates, as well as the mammalian gestation period ('pregnancy') and its ability to have more developed children at birth could be further required factors that led to societies of human complexity. You never know what 65 million years of uninterrupted evolution would have produced, but based on the way birds evolved I don't believe we would have had a dinosaur Hacker News in this alternate history. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troodontidae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troodontidae
- paulie_a 7y ago
  A talking bird can teach other birds to talk. But those birds can't teach others to talk Maybe not a fact but Macaws click their talons much like a dino, atleast in the way the Dino's were presented in Jurassic Park. But they do the head bobbing motion too. A talking bird can have a sense of humor. My macaw would call the dog to the cage. Throw food at him and then laugh. Sometimes in a British accent. I have no idea where that came from. And they are pretty territorial. I have a scar to prove it. Granted this is mostly anecdotal from having a macaw for thirty years
  - mkl 7y ago
    Birds are like the dinosaurs in Jurassic park because those fictional dinosaurs were modelled on birds.
    - paulie_a 7y ago
      I wasn't just referencing jp in my comment. Just one single observation. The rest were unrelated due to me having a macaw for thirty years. Thanks for incorrecting me
- kittiepryde 7y ago
  If the event didn't occur, dinosaurs may not have all just become birds. The evolution of the animal eco system would have been very different -- but maybe still reaching the same result.
  - DCKing 7y ago
    > If the event didn't occur, dinosaurs may not have all just become birds. I'm not trying to suggest that. I'm just saying that we don't know enough, but that based on the limited things we do know (birds never got to primate level societal complexity), we can hypothesize that dinosaurs would never have made it. It could well be that some other dinosaur subfamily could have taken a turn towards becoming a complex society, but I wouldn't have bet on the ankylosaurs, the sauropods or the ornithopods either for this.
daveslash 7y ago
I believe it's certainly possible that they could have, but it's also possible that they wouldn't have. I think it's a matter of probability more than anything. It's a common misconception that humans are the pinnacle of evolution -- that we're somehow that most advanced in the lineage of evolution. People often misinterpret "survival of the fittest" to imply that we, humans, are the fittest because of our intelligence. In the context of what's on Earth today, we're no more the fittest than modern day ants. "Fittest" should be thought of "fittest for [X] environment". If the dinosaurs hadn't died out, it's quite possible that one or more species would have evolved intelligence that made them fit for their niche, but it's quite possible that intelligence would never have made any of them the fittest for their niche, and thus not evolved into something more.

by hos234 7y ago

astannard 7y ago

Well plenty of similar animals that were around at the same time such as Crocodiles have not. Unless crocs reside in our sewers watching, waiting and plotting our downfall

nikofeyn 7y ago

maybe? but in my non-expert opinion, probably not. intelligence doesn't seem to be correlated with the age of the species or recent lineage from what i understand. in the water, sharks are extremely old, almost reaching back to the dinosaur ages, but they are wrecked in intelligence by orcas, who came much later. plus, intelligence, or at least the further development of society and technology is solely due to the ability to manipulate objects. for example, i strongly believe that if you took an orca brain and gave it human-like manipulation tools and moved it to land that you would have a homosapiens competitor.

DCKing 7y ago

This may sound like nitpicking, but it isn't: the dinos have survived. All birds are dinosaurs. In fact, birds are extremely closely related to the dinosaurs that were long conjectured to have the highest cognitive abilities [1]. Some birds arguably have higher intelligence and form complex societies. But it was the primate group that developed the "most complex" society. This despite the fact that birds like primates are visually oriented, highly vocalized, take extensive care of their young, and many are already adopted to live in complex societies. It could be that the manual dexterity of primates, as well as the mammalian gestation period ('pregnancy') and its ability to have more developed children at birth could be further required factors that led to societies of human complexity. You never know what 65 million years of uninterrupted evolution would have produced, but based on the way birds evolved I don't believe we would have had a dinosaur Hacker News in this alternate history. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troodontidae https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troodontidae

paulie_a 7y ago
A talking bird can teach other birds to talk. But those birds can't teach others to talk Maybe not a fact but Macaws click their talons much like a dino, atleast in the way the Dino's were presented in Jurassic Park. But they do the head bobbing motion too. A talking bird can have a sense of humor. My macaw would call the dog to the cage. Throw food at him and then laugh. Sometimes in a British accent. I have no idea where that came from. And they are pretty territorial. I have a scar to prove it. Granted this is mostly anecdotal from having a macaw for thirty years
- mkl 7y ago
  Birds are like the dinosaurs in Jurassic park because those fictional dinosaurs were modelled on birds.
  - paulie_a 7y ago
    I wasn't just referencing jp in my comment. Just one single observation. The rest were unrelated due to me having a macaw for thirty years. Thanks for incorrecting me
kittiepryde 7y ago
If the event didn't occur, dinosaurs may not have all just become birds. The evolution of the animal eco system would have been very different -- but maybe still reaching the same result.
- DCKing 7y ago
  > If the event didn't occur, dinosaurs may not have all just become birds. I'm not trying to suggest that. I'm just saying that we don't know enough, but that based on the limited things we do know (birds never got to primate level societal complexity), we can hypothesize that dinosaurs would never have made it. It could well be that some other dinosaur subfamily could have taken a turn towards becoming a complex society, but I wouldn't have bet on the ankylosaurs, the sauropods or the ornithopods either for this.

daveslash 7y ago

I believe it's certainly possible that they could have, but it's also possible that they wouldn't have. I think it's a matter of probability more than anything. It's a common misconception that humans are the pinnacle of evolution -- that we're somehow that most advanced in the lineage of evolution. People often misinterpret "survival of the fittest" to imply that we, humans, are the fittest because of our intelligence. In the context of what's on Earth today, we're no more the fittest than modern day ants. "Fittest" should be thought of "fittest for [X] environment". If the dinosaurs hadn't died out, it's quite possible that one or more species would have evolved intelligence that made them fit for their niche, but it's quite possible that intelligence would never have made any of them the fittest for their niche, and thus not evolved into something more.