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I'm an Australian citizen and know that every day evil things are done in the name of my government. People are beaten in police cells and detention centers, im

I'm an Australian citizen and know that every day evil things are done in the name of my government. People are beaten in police cells and detention centers, important policy and budget decisions are made out of self interest, not for the public good. Very few people may be truly intentionally evil, but we are flawed, greedy and lazy. I have every reason to believe that this is universal. I don't believe that the inherent nature of westerners or Chinese people is any different. I also know the democracy is not the wonderful perfect mechanism we like to imagine, it is an arena, in which the contest is heavily weighted towards government and the powerful. People who fight in this arena against power are brave and rare. Most of us, in China or the west do not do this. I admire the Hong Kong protesters, not because I see them as representing the west against the east, but because I believe they are individuals bravely standing together against power. I have stood in more modest protests, before lines of Australian and American police, and I know how scared I was and how limited my own bravery was. Nationalists who embrace government propaganda without thought are frightening whether they are Australian, American or Chinese nationalists. Knowing these things, I believe any argument that presents the Hong Kong protests as a conflict between east and west, regardless of whether they take a pro-western or pro-Beijing stance, is using a grain of truth to tell a dishonest story. But it's a story that will continue to be told because seems to be something we all enjoy about hearing a story in which the the most generous, idealistic view of ourselves or our group is contrasted against the most negative achievable portrait of the other group. So I am not surprised to hear, that mixed into the Hong Know protests is an offensive caricatures of mainlanders. If it were not true, it would be the perhaps the first conflict in human history to rise above petty unproductive insults

monkeycantype 7y ago
trying to explain what i mean further: Stories that portray an idealistic image of ourselves against a negative portrayal of others are intoxicating. Nationalism is a state of dwelling within those intoxicating stories, and what makes nationalism so frightening is that in that state, people will do terrible things to others, I believe, in part, to sustain the immersion in the story. This same thing happens in protest movements too, being part of a movement, especially if the cause is noble and good, the sense of yourself in a grand narrative is exhilarating. Even if you believe the protests are good, intelligent and brave - as I do - it's unrealistic to think there would not be people in the protests who view the conflicts in racist terms. When I said people are lazy, what I should have said is that we are limited, we can only comprehend reality through simple models, and it can be very hard to remember that the models we use to navigate reality are only models. So many of the squabbles on this an other forums seem to begin with people who have models of reality, perfectly suitable for navigating their own lives, and assuming with no evidence that their model is also adequate for describing other peoples lives, shouting their models at each other without a lot of listening. There's well deserved disapproval here of the 'whataboutism' approach to debating, but a some whataboutism is necessary. You need to be able to see the ways in which Tiananmen square and the Nagasaki bombing are similar events in order to get past a cartoon view you, your group and the other.

monkeycantype 7y ago

trying to explain what i mean further: Stories that portray an idealistic image of ourselves against a negative portrayal of others are intoxicating. Nationalism is a state of dwelling within those intoxicating stories, and what makes nationalism so frightening is that in that state, people will do terrible things to others, I believe, in part, to sustain the immersion in the story. This same thing happens in protest movements too, being part of a movement, especially if the cause is noble and good, the sense of yourself in a grand narrative is exhilarating. Even if you believe the protests are good, intelligent and brave - as I do - it's unrealistic to think there would not be people in the protests who view the conflicts in racist terms. When I said people are lazy, what I should have said is that we are limited, we can only comprehend reality through simple models, and it can be very hard to remember that the models we use to navigate reality are only models. So many of the squabbles on this an other forums seem to begin with people who have models of reality, perfectly suitable for navigating their own lives, and assuming with no evidence that their model is also adequate for describing other peoples lives, shouting their models at each other without a lot of listening. There's well deserved disapproval here of the 'whataboutism' approach to debating, but a some whataboutism is necessary. You need to be able to see the ways in which Tiananmen square and the Nagasaki bombing are similar events in order to get past a cartoon view you, your group and the other.