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Honest question: do you think there is a different solution that would work to prevent situations like these people in VA? I feel like one of the responsibilit

by xrd 7y ago

Honest question: do you think there is a different solution that would work to prevent situations like these people in VA? I feel like one of the responsibilities and benefits of living in a modern society is that you should be sheltered from these kinds of problems, and that comes with a cost, as you note, in higher taxes. It sounds like you don't feel that way, and that's fair, but I want to make sure there is not another solution you think would work where the OP recommendation would not. But, I look around most US major cities and see the rampant homelessness and drug addiction and (often the same people with) mental health crisis, and it scares me for the future of our country. I did not see any of that in Europe a few weeks ago, even in cities like Barcelona and Greece, situated in countries that have "bad" unemployment and "bad" economies.

rayiner 7y ago
I’m in favor of higher taxes for more public services. Then again I’m a high income professional living in a blue state, so my taxes are already at European levels. (Maybe not France but probably Germany or the Netherlands.) At the same time, the left is trying to pull a fast one on the American public. They are acting like universal healthcare will be this win-win situation. But lots of people will lose. Our neighbors, who have solidly middle class jobs but good health insurance benefits, will end up paying more in taxes than they will save in out of pocket health expenses. (Back when I had an entry-level engineering job in Atlanta, I made about $60k per year with full benefits and no premium contribution. Circa 2008 me would be worse off under universal healthcare.) Even at the aggregate level, the idea that savings on premium contributions will offset the increased taxes is a fantasy. It assumes our costs will go down to European country levels. I have zero reason to believe that will be true. The US public sector is fantastically inefficient. The New York MTA spends twice as much to move a passenger one mile as compared to London, and building a mile of subway costs seven times as much. The US spends more on social welfare than Canada per person already, and that doesn’t even include universal healthcare. It is pure fantasy to assume we can get universal healthcare without European level taxes—20% payroll tax, 20% VAT, the works—on the middle class. I think it’s worth it, because I think providing for the most vulnerable trumps having more TVs per capita. But it’s dishonest to pretend like it won’t require a major hit to material standard of living. The CBO estimates it will cost $3 trillion a year to provide universal healthcare. You will notice that no Democratic candidate has proposed raising taxes sufficiently to come anywhere near raising the required revenue. That is very telling.
- thatfrenchguy 7y ago
  > The CBO estimates it will cost $3 trillion a year to provide universal healthcare. You forget about the fact that universal healthcare will bring healthcare costs down as fuck. Ever looked at the price of a GP appointment before insurance in France and the US ?
  - rayiner 7y ago
    It won’t. The US is structurally incapable of offering public services efficiently: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-... > And The Times observed construction on site in Paris, which is building a project similar to the Second Avenue subway at one-sixth the cost. This is an extreme example, but this is the persistent story of government programs in the US: they do far less while costing far more than in European countries. The US spends almost 30% more per student on K-12 education while getting worse results.
    - xrd 7y ago
      Why is this? Massive corruption? Regulation? I'm not disagreeing with your assessment at all.
      - defen 7y ago
        Unions, organized crime, greedy capitalists, environmental and worker safety regulations, and/or Baumol's cost disease, depending on who's answering the question
        ceejayoz 7y ago
        Europe has all of these, and their unions and regulations are substantially stronger even.
      - tripzilch 7y ago
        I was thinking, it might be the cultural tendency to make really long work weeks / hours, but spend a lot of those hours slacking off (see also the thread about the boss-detector arduino thingy). As if they're paid for time, not work.

by xrd 7y ago

rayiner 7y ago

I’m in favor of higher taxes for more public services. Then again I’m a high income professional living in a blue state, so my taxes are already at European levels. (Maybe not France but probably Germany or the Netherlands.) At the same time, the left is trying to pull a fast one on the American public. They are acting like universal healthcare will be this win-win situation. But lots of people will lose. Our neighbors, who have solidly middle class jobs but good health insurance benefits, will end up paying more in taxes than they will save in out of pocket health expenses. (Back when I had an entry-level engineering job in Atlanta, I made about $60k per year with full benefits and no premium contribution. Circa 2008 me would be worse off under universal healthcare.) Even at the aggregate level, the idea that savings on premium contributions will offset the increased taxes is a fantasy. It assumes our costs will go down to European country levels. I have zero reason to believe that will be true. The US public sector is fantastically inefficient. The New York MTA spends twice as much to move a passenger one mile as compared to London, and building a mile of subway costs seven times as much. The US spends more on social welfare than Canada per person already, and that doesn’t even include universal healthcare. It is pure fantasy to assume we can get universal healthcare without European level taxes—20% payroll tax, 20% VAT, the works—on the middle class. I think it’s worth it, because I think providing for the most vulnerable trumps having more TVs per capita. But it’s dishonest to pretend like it won’t require a major hit to material standard of living. The CBO estimates it will cost $3 trillion a year to provide universal healthcare. You will notice that no Democratic candidate has proposed raising taxes sufficiently to come anywhere near raising the required revenue. That is very telling.

thatfrenchguy 7y ago
> The CBO estimates it will cost $3 trillion a year to provide universal healthcare. You forget about the fact that universal healthcare will bring healthcare costs down as fuck. Ever looked at the price of a GP appointment before insurance in France and the US ?
- rayiner 7y ago
  It won’t. The US is structurally incapable of offering public services efficiently: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-... > And The Times observed construction on site in Paris, which is building a project similar to the Second Avenue subway at one-sixth the cost. This is an extreme example, but this is the persistent story of government programs in the US: they do far less while costing far more than in European countries. The US spends almost 30% more per student on K-12 education while getting worse results.
  - xrd 7y ago
    Why is this? Massive corruption? Regulation? I'm not disagreeing with your assessment at all.
    - defen 7y ago
      Unions, organized crime, greedy capitalists, environmental and worker safety regulations, and/or Baumol's cost disease, depending on who's answering the question
      - ceejayoz 7y ago
        Europe has all of these, and their unions and regulations are substantially stronger even.
    - tripzilch 7y ago
      I was thinking, it might be the cultural tendency to make really long work weeks / hours, but spend a lot of those hours slacking off (see also the thread about the boss-detector arduino thingy). As if they're paid for time, not work.