5 ms·

What's the point you're trying to make here?

by dag11 7y ago

yters 7y ago
If everything is 'Darwinism,' what's the point of the theory? What does it tell us? What explanatory power does it have? What possibilities does it exclude? Darwin's original theory was groundbreaking because it could explain how you can get a large variety of species from one or a few simple organisms. But, if all one has to do to have a brilliant insight is to prefix 'Darwinian' to any process of change, then it all seems exceedingly pointless. I can write an app where you give it a name, and it prefixes 'Darwinian' and now you have a brilliant insight. I can replace a whole host of researchers with a Python script. It just seems ridiculous.
- trhway 7y ago
  >If everything is 'Darwinism,' what's the point of the theory? Not everything is Darwinism. Darwinism trajectories in the parameter space are driven by local optimization. >What does it tell us? What explanatory power does it have? What possibilities does it exclude? well, as usual. You define your topological space and find a solution for your local optimization problem. Bingo :)
- n4r9 7y ago
  > any process of change The previous comment was fairly clear: it's not any process of change, it is evolution within a system that has mechanisms of variation, selection and heredity.
  - yters 7y ago
    My point is that there are so many processes that fit under that characterization that it seems fairly meaningless to prefix "Darwinism". Plus, that something follows a process of variation, selection and heredity seems fairly uninformative. I still fail to see why it is considered such a breakthrough, as per all my tongue in cheek examples.
    - n4r9 7y ago
      I don't think it's meaningless; it's a tool or perspective that can be used to explain and predict observations in systems that possess certain characteristics. A loose analogy could be made with e.g. systems that have an observed variable which responds linearly to an input. This applies to a very wide array of systems. The theory of linear dynamics was nevertheless an insightful breakthrough at the time, and it's still interesting to explore whether particular systems can be modeled effectively with it.
      - yters 7y ago
        I agree with linear response systems (elec. eng. class), but what predictions can we make from this 'Darwinist' definition?
        n4r9 7y ago
        That's a well-posed question, and after some thought I think the answer is simply: those units of replication which are better adapted to surviving and replicating in their environment, will spread and thrive. I understand that this seems like a tautology, but I think that is actually the first part of Darwin's genius. Once the model is understood, then the outcomes appear obvious, at least at small scales. The second part of the genius is to grasp how small changes can build up over immense time scales to produce a plethora of species large and small. When it comes to "universal darwinism", the idea that first springs to mind is the theory of memetics, somewhat like cultural evolution via natural selection. A quick google suggests some movement is being made towards formalising this into a predictive science [0]. Also, I think that the explanatory power of a model can be just as helpful to us as the predictive power. For example the interplay of memetic and genetic selection gives satisfying explanations for behavioural phenomena that can be tough to accept on purely genetic grounds [1]. The existence of purely celibate positions of authority in many societies (shaman, priest, monk...) can be explained on the grounds that the "meme" defined by such a position frees up a lot of the host's energy. They no longer have to spend time and effort on maintaining a family or gathering food, and this energy can then be poured into spreading the meme to the next generation. I think you could even make a concrete prediction on similar grounds: there will continue to be strong groups forming around an idea of celibacy well into the future, such as is happening now with "incel" and "journey to purity" groups. [0] https://www.ies.be/files/metaspaper.pdf https://www.ies.be/files/metaspaper.pdf [1] http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/MEMGEN.html http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/MEMGEN.html

What's the point you're trying to make here?

by dag11 7y ago

What's the point you're trying to make here?

If everything is 'Darwinism,' what's the point of the theory? What does it tell us? What explanatory power does it have? What possibilities does it exclude? Darwin's original theory was groundbreaking because it could explain how you can get a large variety of species from one or a few simple organisms. But, if all one has to do to have a brilliant insight is to prefix 'Darwinian' to any process of change, then it all seems exceedingly pointless. I can write an app where you give it a name, and it prefixes 'Darwinian' and now you have a brilliant insight. I can replace a whole host of researchers with a Python script. It just seems ridiculous.

trhway 7y ago
>If everything is 'Darwinism,' what's the point of the theory? Not everything is Darwinism. Darwinism trajectories in the parameter space are driven by local optimization. >What does it tell us? What explanatory power does it have? What possibilities does it exclude? well, as usual. You define your topological space and find a solution for your local optimization problem. Bingo :)
n4r9 7y ago
> any process of change The previous comment was fairly clear: it's not any process of change, it is evolution within a system that has mechanisms of variation, selection and heredity.
- yters 7y ago
  My point is that there are so many processes that fit under that characterization that it seems fairly meaningless to prefix "Darwinism". Plus, that something follows a process of variation, selection and heredity seems fairly uninformative. I still fail to see why it is considered such a breakthrough, as per all my tongue in cheek examples.
  - n4r9 7y ago
    I don't think it's meaningless; it's a tool or perspective that can be used to explain and predict observations in systems that possess certain characteristics. A loose analogy could be made with e.g. systems that have an observed variable which responds linearly to an input. This applies to a very wide array of systems. The theory of linear dynamics was nevertheless an insightful breakthrough at the time, and it's still interesting to explore whether particular systems can be modeled effectively with it.
    - yters 7y ago
      I agree with linear response systems (elec. eng. class), but what predictions can we make from this 'Darwinist' definition?
      - n4r9 7y ago
        That's a well-posed question, and after some thought I think the answer is simply: those units of replication which are better adapted to surviving and replicating in their environment, will spread and thrive. I understand that this seems like a tautology, but I think that is actually the first part of Darwin's genius. Once the model is understood, then the outcomes appear obvious, at least at small scales. The second part of the genius is to grasp how small changes can build up over immense time scales to produce a plethora of species large and small. When it comes to "universal darwinism", the idea that first springs to mind is the theory of memetics, somewhat like cultural evolution via natural selection. A quick google suggests some movement is being made towards formalising this into a predictive science [0]. Also, I think that the explanatory power of a model can be just as helpful to us as the predictive power. For example the interplay of memetic and genetic selection gives satisfying explanations for behavioural phenomena that can be tough to accept on purely genetic grounds [1]. The existence of purely celibate positions of authority in many societies (shaman, priest, monk...) can be explained on the grounds that the "meme" defined by such a position frees up a lot of the host's energy. They no longer have to spend time and effort on maintaining a family or gathering food, and this energy can then be poured into spreading the meme to the next generation. I think you could even make a concrete prediction on similar grounds: there will continue to be strong groups forming around an idea of celibacy well into the future, such as is happening now with "incel" and "journey to purity" groups. [0] https://www.ies.be/files/metaspaper.pdf https://www.ies.be/files/metaspaper.pdf [1] http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/MEMGEN.html http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/MEMGEN.html