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From https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/nicolenguyen/google-antitrust-investigation https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/nicolenguyen/google-ant... (which I c

From https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/nicolenguyen/google-antitrust-investigation https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/nicolenguyen/google-ant... (which I can actually read): > "Amazon Marketplace and Basics, and Google’s ad exchange and businesses on the exchange would be split apart. Google Search would have to be spun off as well," according to the [Warren] plan. I'm all for busting up monopolists, but what would fund Google search? I mean, that's what arguably drove Google to build its ad business, in the first place. But if it could work somehow, maybe we'd get a return to more useful search results. Edit: OK, I get it, ads.

MiroF 7y ago
Ads would fund Google search and Google search could still sell ads on the exchange. This is at least how I took it to mean.
- d1zzy 7y ago
  What about all the underlying infrastructure (hardware, software, services, libraries, etc) that both use? Google has a famously single large repository for almost all their products (except Android, Chrome and a few other things): https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2016/7/204032-why-google-stores-billions-of-lines-of-code-in-a-single-repository/fulltext https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2016/7/204032-why-google-stor... Good luck changing billions of lines of code so you can create a clean separation that can work together between different companies.
  - MiroF 7y ago
    I feel like this argument applied to Bell and it still worked. "Too big to refactor" is a pretty silly argument against anti trust action Also that's just not how "single large repositories" even work
  - mprovost 7y ago
    The entire Unix operating system was developed at Bell Labs which was then broken up by the US government along with the rest of AT&T. This led it to being commercialised and distributed. Who knows what would come out of Google if everything they did wasn't locked in a monorepo inside a single organisation.
  - kccqzy 7y ago
    It's really no different from a fork. Keep copies of the repository at both companies. Then let things run its course (engineers deleting unused code etc).
apexalpha 7y ago
Google Search would earn money just as any other site using Google Ads does.
freehunter 7y ago
Hmm. I'm a big fan of breaking up Amazon, but that's not the line I'd draw and I'm curious why Basics should be removed from Amazon. Most large retail outlets have the "store brand" for value shoppers. Walmart, Target, Meijer, Home Depot, Staples, etc, they all have the store brand. I'd certainly split Amazon Marketplace and AWS apart from the rest of Amazon, but I'm curious why Amazon shouldn't have their own store brand?
- tantalor 7y ago
  When you own the platform then you have complete access to data like user behavior and sales. With that (unfair) advantage you can more efficiently sell your own alternatives. This happens on every platform (app store, web search, social media, etc.) but it's problematic on Amazon because it can stifle small businesses on and off their platform. Amazon is utilizing its knowledge of its powerful marketplace machine — from optimizing word-search algorithms to analyzing competitors’ sales data to using its customer-review networks — to steer shoppers toward its in-house brands and away from its competitors, say analysts. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/23/business/amazon-the-brand-buster.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/23/business/amazon-the-brand... This data is much more powerful than large retail outlets have with their store brands: “I can’t just walk into a store and say, ‘Excuse me, did you look at this brand of cereal this morning and decide not to buy it?’ Amazon has that data. They know you looked at a brand and didn’t buy it and they’re not going to share that data with any other brands.”
  - icebraining 7y ago
    > This data is much more powerful than large retail outlets have with their store brands: “I can’t just walk into a store and say, ‘Excuse me, did you look at this brand of cereal this morning and decide not to buy it?’ They definitively can, and are. Granted, it's a fairly new development.
skyyler 7y ago
Are there options that don't involve advertising? Is there any way that we as a society could try to move towards an online economy that isn't built upon hijacking attention?
- mirimir 7y ago
  I hate seeing ads, and I hate being tracked. So I'd much rather have fairly priced and privacy-preserving micropayment services. However, I also get that many people couldn't afford even micropayment prices that are comparable to current ad income. So they'd need some accommodation. Having a "pay or see ads" choice might work. Except that there are adblockers.
  - skyyler 7y ago
    I hate the idea of paying for the luxury of having your own thoughts not be intruded upon.
    - mirimir 7y ago
      I'm usually as hardcore as the next person, but isn't a bit much to get huffy about someone trying to fund their site using ads? As I see it, they have the right to use ads. And I have the right to block ads. So we just fight it out.
- d1zzy 7y ago
  And making that universally available (geographically, economically and for all ages) as "free with ads" is and making it as anonymous as that (because while people complain a lot about Google's privacy invasion, last time I checked they don't require login to do a search, you can use private browsers, tor, etc but good luck making a universal payment system not traceable, don't think governments would ever allow it).
- chillacy 7y ago
  From a brief survey of the cities I've been to around the world, I'm gonna have to say "not yet". And even in a post-scarcity post-money society the one thing which remains valuable is attention.

MiroF 7y ago

Ads would fund Google search and Google search could still sell ads on the exchange. This is at least how I took it to mean.

d1zzy 7y ago
What about all the underlying infrastructure (hardware, software, services, libraries, etc) that both use? Google has a famously single large repository for almost all their products (except Android, Chrome and a few other things): https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2016/7/204032-why-google-stores-billions-of-lines-of-code-in-a-single-repository/fulltext https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2016/7/204032-why-google-stor... Good luck changing billions of lines of code so you can create a clean separation that can work together between different companies.
- MiroF 7y ago
  I feel like this argument applied to Bell and it still worked. "Too big to refactor" is a pretty silly argument against anti trust action Also that's just not how "single large repositories" even work
- mprovost 7y ago
  The entire Unix operating system was developed at Bell Labs which was then broken up by the US government along with the rest of AT&T. This led it to being commercialised and distributed. Who knows what would come out of Google if everything they did wasn't locked in a monorepo inside a single organisation.
- kccqzy 7y ago
  It's really no different from a fork. Keep copies of the repository at both companies. Then let things run its course (engineers deleting unused code etc).

apexalpha 7y ago

Google Search would earn money just as any other site using Google Ads does.

freehunter 7y ago

Hmm. I'm a big fan of breaking up Amazon, but that's not the line I'd draw and I'm curious why Basics should be removed from Amazon. Most large retail outlets have the "store brand" for value shoppers. Walmart, Target, Meijer, Home Depot, Staples, etc, they all have the store brand. I'd certainly split Amazon Marketplace and AWS apart from the rest of Amazon, but I'm curious why Amazon shouldn't have their own store brand?

tantalor 7y ago
When you own the platform then you have complete access to data like user behavior and sales. With that (unfair) advantage you can more efficiently sell your own alternatives. This happens on every platform (app store, web search, social media, etc.) but it's problematic on Amazon because it can stifle small businesses on and off their platform. Amazon is utilizing its knowledge of its powerful marketplace machine — from optimizing word-search algorithms to analyzing competitors’ sales data to using its customer-review networks — to steer shoppers toward its in-house brands and away from its competitors, say analysts. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/23/business/amazon-the-brand-buster.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/23/business/amazon-the-brand... This data is much more powerful than large retail outlets have with their store brands: “I can’t just walk into a store and say, ‘Excuse me, did you look at this brand of cereal this morning and decide not to buy it?’ Amazon has that data. They know you looked at a brand and didn’t buy it and they’re not going to share that data with any other brands.”
- icebraining 7y ago
  > This data is much more powerful than large retail outlets have with their store brands: “I can’t just walk into a store and say, ‘Excuse me, did you look at this brand of cereal this morning and decide not to buy it?’ They definitively can, and are. Granted, it's a fairly new development.

skyyler 7y ago

Are there options that don't involve advertising? Is there any way that we as a society could try to move towards an online economy that isn't built upon hijacking attention?

mirimir 7y ago
I hate seeing ads, and I hate being tracked. So I'd much rather have fairly priced and privacy-preserving micropayment services. However, I also get that many people couldn't afford even micropayment prices that are comparable to current ad income. So they'd need some accommodation. Having a "pay or see ads" choice might work. Except that there are adblockers.
- skyyler 7y ago
  I hate the idea of paying for the luxury of having your own thoughts not be intruded upon.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    I'm usually as hardcore as the next person, but isn't a bit much to get huffy about someone trying to fund their site using ads? As I see it, they have the right to use ads. And I have the right to block ads. So we just fight it out.
d1zzy 7y ago
And making that universally available (geographically, economically and for all ages) as "free with ads" is and making it as anonymous as that (because while people complain a lot about Google's privacy invasion, last time I checked they don't require login to do a search, you can use private browsers, tor, etc but good luck making a universal payment system not traceable, don't think governments would ever allow it).
chillacy 7y ago
From a brief survey of the cities I've been to around the world, I'm gonna have to say "not yet". And even in a post-scarcity post-money society the one thing which remains valuable is attention.