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The main issue I see with these frameworks is that they cannot match Rails' support ecosystem. The framework has around for a really long while and rails develo

The main issue I see with these frameworks is that they cannot match Rails' support ecosystem. The framework has around for a really long while and rails developers have made - and documented - every error, kink and detour it is possible to make when writing code. I have often been pleasantly surprised to google an esoteric problem I imagined could only arise from my own unique brand of kludginess, and find that the community had encountered and solved same in the past. This is of massive value especially to new developers.

StreamBright 7y ago
I am pretty sure. If you developing the next Basecamp these are essential. However, I rarely see Rails succeeding in other aspects of web development. I spent some time on trying to make Rails work for use cases that are not the perfect match for this ecosystem and failed. Yet, it is quite possible that there are millions on web applications out there, running on Rails happily. It is just not a great fit for things I do.
- Lordarminius 7y ago
  I'd be interested in knowing what areas you found Rails lacking. Care to elaborate ?
  - malloryerik 7y ago
    I might be wrong but aren't real-time areas like WebSockets not really strong points in Rails? I do see that Action Cable appears to have improved, and I don't know at what point performance issues would get in the way, and I also probably don't know about some potential solutions. Should one choose Rails for an application with significant real-time / reactive functionality?
  - StreamBright 7y ago
    For me the most important one is performance and the lack of trust in my code (run time errors). - https://blog.codinghorror.com/performance-is-a-feature/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/performance-is-a-feature/ - http://www.nicolas-hahn.com/python/go/rust/programming/2019/07/01/program-in-python-go-rust/ http://www.nicolas-hahn.com/python/go/rust/programming/2019/...
    - gls2ro 7y ago
      I totally agree that app performance is important. But I really think there is a difference between framework/programming language performance and acceptance-level app performance. It is possible to have a good performance app (Github, Shopify ) even if you don't believe that Ruby is good enough in this category.
- t0mbstone 7y ago
  And how, exactly, are you differentiating a "Basecamp-like" startup from a "non-Basecamp" startup?
  - hderms 7y ago
    Basecamp's problems seem particularly well suited to a batteries included CRUD framework. There are plenty of problems out there that aren't CRUD-centric
    - StreamBright 7y ago
      Exactly.
  - StreamBright 7y ago
    non-Basecamp startups: - processing images - providing API for warehouse fulfilment for online retailers (peak load is 100x of base load, latency goes out of the roof before Rails just crashes with OOM) - real estate indexing with huge amount of data (we could not make the full text search work reliably with Rails) These were pre 6.0 and I am pretty sure many things changed since, I am just saying it is easy to run into these situations. The bigger your framework the more assumptions are built in that are hard to come by. It is good for Basecamp startups not good for non-Basecamp startups.
    - t0mbstone 7y ago
      Image processing: Spin up sidekiq workers and do your image processing in parallel in background processes. Providing API for warehouse fulfilment with peak load 100x greater than base: Run your Rails APP in any number of possible auto-scaling configurations. Real Estate Full Text Indexing: Use ElasticSearch alongside Rails to provide highly performant full text indexing/searching
      - StreamBright 7y ago
        Are you suggesting that there is more to it than just Rails and an amazing ecosystem? I agree.
philwelch 7y ago
There’s kind of a middle ground where Rails is widely-used enough that it has this advantage over stuff like Elixir, but by the same token the Python, Java, and probably .Net ecosystems have the same advantage over Rails.
- AlchemistCamp 7y ago
  The place where Ruby really wins is speed of development. Despite massive ecosystems and many libraries, Python, .Net and especially Java all lag Ruby in terms of how long it takes to build a web app. I'd say part of the reason is expressiveness of the language (since it's very easy to make DSLs with Ruby and Rails benefits greatly from them), but another part is cultural. Python, .Net and especially Java communities tend to suffer (and benefit!) from a strong emphasis on correctness and purity over speed and developer experience.
  - philwelch 7y ago
    I'm not sure that Ruby is actually any faster or more expressive than Python. Having used both languages I consider them roughly equivalent.
    - AlchemistCamp 7y ago
      Can you write DSL like the Rails router DSL in Python? If so, how much work is involved?
      - philwelch 7y ago
        Having a cute API and leaving the parentheses out of your function calls isn't a DSL, it's just a cute API where you leave the parentheses off. I know Ruby people call them "DSLs" all the time, but they aren't. Python doesn't have an idiomatic equivalent to block arguments, but you could probably write an equally usable routing API. It just wouldn't look as cute because there would still be parentheses. What you end up doing in e.g. Flask is decorating your controlle method with the path that routes to it. Turbogears controllers serve routes based on class and method names without the extra wiring that Rails has. Django has a Rails-style "URLconf" (https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/2.2/topics/http/urls/ https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/2.2/topics/http/urls/) that actually seems a lot more intuitive and explicit to me.
AlchemistCamp 7y ago
It depends on what you need. If you're building chat and want presence features so you can see who's online (and with how many and what type of devices), Elixir + Phoenix gives it to you out of the box. I agree with your point about a sparser number of libraries, and sometimes that slows me down. That said, Elixir's ergonomics and documentation is fantastic.

StreamBright 7y ago

I am pretty sure. If you developing the next Basecamp these are essential. However, I rarely see Rails succeeding in other aspects of web development. I spent some time on trying to make Rails work for use cases that are not the perfect match for this ecosystem and failed. Yet, it is quite possible that there are millions on web applications out there, running on Rails happily. It is just not a great fit for things I do.

Lordarminius 7y ago
I'd be interested in knowing what areas you found Rails lacking. Care to elaborate ?
- malloryerik 7y ago
  I might be wrong but aren't real-time areas like WebSockets not really strong points in Rails? I do see that Action Cable appears to have improved, and I don't know at what point performance issues would get in the way, and I also probably don't know about some potential solutions. Should one choose Rails for an application with significant real-time / reactive functionality?
- StreamBright 7y ago
  For me the most important one is performance and the lack of trust in my code (run time errors). - https://blog.codinghorror.com/performance-is-a-feature/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/performance-is-a-feature/ - http://www.nicolas-hahn.com/python/go/rust/programming/2019/07/01/program-in-python-go-rust/ http://www.nicolas-hahn.com/python/go/rust/programming/2019/...
  - gls2ro 7y ago
    I totally agree that app performance is important. But I really think there is a difference between framework/programming language performance and acceptance-level app performance. It is possible to have a good performance app (Github, Shopify ) even if you don't believe that Ruby is good enough in this category.
t0mbstone 7y ago
And how, exactly, are you differentiating a "Basecamp-like" startup from a "non-Basecamp" startup?
- hderms 7y ago
  Basecamp's problems seem particularly well suited to a batteries included CRUD framework. There are plenty of problems out there that aren't CRUD-centric
  - StreamBright 7y ago
    Exactly.
- StreamBright 7y ago
  non-Basecamp startups: - processing images - providing API for warehouse fulfilment for online retailers (peak load is 100x of base load, latency goes out of the roof before Rails just crashes with OOM) - real estate indexing with huge amount of data (we could not make the full text search work reliably with Rails) These were pre 6.0 and I am pretty sure many things changed since, I am just saying it is easy to run into these situations. The bigger your framework the more assumptions are built in that are hard to come by. It is good for Basecamp startups not good for non-Basecamp startups.
  - t0mbstone 7y ago
    Image processing: Spin up sidekiq workers and do your image processing in parallel in background processes. Providing API for warehouse fulfilment with peak load 100x greater than base: Run your Rails APP in any number of possible auto-scaling configurations. Real Estate Full Text Indexing: Use ElasticSearch alongside Rails to provide highly performant full text indexing/searching
    - StreamBright 7y ago
      Are you suggesting that there is more to it than just Rails and an amazing ecosystem? I agree.

philwelch 7y ago

There’s kind of a middle ground where Rails is widely-used enough that it has this advantage over stuff like Elixir, but by the same token the Python, Java, and probably .Net ecosystems have the same advantage over Rails.

AlchemistCamp 7y ago
The place where Ruby really wins is speed of development. Despite massive ecosystems and many libraries, Python, .Net and especially Java all lag Ruby in terms of how long it takes to build a web app. I'd say part of the reason is expressiveness of the language (since it's very easy to make DSLs with Ruby and Rails benefits greatly from them), but another part is cultural. Python, .Net and especially Java communities tend to suffer (and benefit!) from a strong emphasis on correctness and purity over speed and developer experience.
- philwelch 7y ago
  I'm not sure that Ruby is actually any faster or more expressive than Python. Having used both languages I consider them roughly equivalent.
  - AlchemistCamp 7y ago
    Can you write DSL like the Rails router DSL in Python? If so, how much work is involved?
    - philwelch 7y ago
      Having a cute API and leaving the parentheses out of your function calls isn't a DSL, it's just a cute API where you leave the parentheses off. I know Ruby people call them "DSLs" all the time, but they aren't. Python doesn't have an idiomatic equivalent to block arguments, but you could probably write an equally usable routing API. It just wouldn't look as cute because there would still be parentheses. What you end up doing in e.g. Flask is decorating your controlle method with the path that routes to it. Turbogears controllers serve routes based on class and method names without the extra wiring that Rails has. Django has a Rails-style "URLconf" (https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/2.2/topics/http/urls/ https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/2.2/topics/http/urls/) that actually seems a lot more intuitive and explicit to me.

AlchemistCamp 7y ago

It depends on what you need. If you're building chat and want presence features so you can see who's online (and with how many and what type of devices), Elixir + Phoenix gives it to you out of the box. I agree with your point about a sparser number of libraries, and sometimes that slows me down. That said, Elixir's ergonomics and documentation is fantastic.