11 ms·

I see it differently. Since Apple makes the hardware and the software I don't have a problem with them preinstalling their own products. However, when a user

I see it differently. Since Apple makes the hardware and the software I don't have a problem with them preinstalling their own products. However, when a user is clearly searching for alternatives on the app store, it matters how far down you have to scroll to find a 3rd party app. Spotify being the 23rd result for a "music" search is absurd.

panpanna 7y ago
> Spotify being the 23rd result for a "music" search is absurd I have hard time believing this was not intentional. Edit: on Android Spotify is at place 2-4. iTunes is nowhere to be seen but that could be explained with the horrible reviews it has received (some are even legit).
- mitchty 7y ago
  I have a hard time believing it was. iTunes search is wicked bad and has been since day 1. After they started allowing tags for apps it got worse, which is an impressive achievement.
  - panpanna 7y ago
    Note how this doesn't affect apples own apps?
  - yoz-y 7y ago
    Judging from the sheer number of "ASO" companies that contacted me the week I put out an app on the store, I believe that the main problem is mainly really bad spam control.
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      Yeah, companies frequently put their competitors' names in their keywords. Not going to name any names, but it's particularly bad in the ride sharing industry.
  - Fnoord 7y ago
    Play Store search is also (still) notoriously bad. Even if it is a 1:1 hit, it does not show that as first entry. And it is full with malware.
    - tombrossman 7y ago
      The advantage to using Google Play is that apps containing ads are clearly labelled as such. Apple won't tell you this in advance. (This was my biggest surprise, recently switching from Android after the CopperheadOS meltdown)
      - Fnoord 7y ago
        Honestly I care less about ads and more about trackers. Google Play says nada about trackers. Exodus project (and therefore F-Droid) does. If you come from CopperheadOS I can recommend /e/ or LineageOS + microG (/e/ also contains microG). microG does not implement GAds. You will still need to block trackers though.
        ajscanlan 7y ago
        Does the iOS App Store mention if an app uses trackers?
        saagarjha 7y ago
        Nope. I would expect it to be difficult to analyze for that, at least with the amount of effort Apple is currently putting into App Store review.
        tombrossman 7y ago
        I agree with you about the trackers, but I just assume ads=tracking. I cannot see any app marketplace saying their apps contain tracking in the main description (it's always buried in the fine print). My understanding is that GrapheneOS[0] is the successor to CopperheadOS, and I think that's what I'll try next. There isn't an Exodus Privacy or F-Droid for iOS and these are sorely missed. [0]https://grapheneos.org/ https://grapheneos.org/
  - lern_too_spel 7y ago
    How can you put iMovie above Spotify in a search results for "music" without putting your thumb on the ranker?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
noer 7y ago
>Spotify being the 23rd result for a "music" search is absurd. That search term is so broad it's difficult to figure out exactly what the users intent is for that. Do they want to listen to music? Do they want to create or record music? FWIW, I just searched for "music" and saw: An ad, a story ("run with music"), apple music, two music players I've never heard of and finally Spotify in position 6.
- xenihn 7y ago
  >That search term is so broad it's difficult to figure out exactly what the users intent is for that. Search optimization. Determine what most users ultimately end up selecting for specific queries, build up your data set over time, then weigh priorities and determine result order based on that.
  - the_other 7y ago
    ... which might explain why Spotify ranks lower than the expectation here. Perhaps more people search for "spotify" when they want Spotify.
- mthoms 7y ago
  >That search term is so broad it's difficult to figure out exactly what the users intent is for that I disagree. It's broad in the sense that that the user could be searching for any number of things. It's not broad in the sense that the user is likely looking for a music listening app. Think of the real world equivalent. In common conversation when someone says "I like music", do you presume that they enjoy listening to, or making, music? I'd say the intent is pretty clear for the majority of users.
Wowfunhappy 7y ago
> However, when a user is clearly searching for alternatives on the app store, it matters how far down you have to scroll to find a 3rd party app. If I delete Apple's Calendar, install a third party Calendar app (like Fantastical), and click a date link, I'll get a message asking me if I want to reinstall Apple's Calendar. I think it's pretty darn clear in that scenario what the user actually wants.
- umvi 7y ago
  On the other hand, Apple products are (or were) frequently marketed towards the tech illiterate ("it just works") and so it's possible grandma accidentally deleted the calendar, tried to re-download via the App Store, downloaded the wrong one, etc.
  - heavenlyblue 7y ago
    Gmail on iOS will open Google Chrome if you have it installed. I don't know how they do it, but they definitely are doing it.
    - penagwin 7y ago
      I believe the app itself (Gmail) is requesting to use Chrome. So each individual app would need to request Chrome, something I'm sure Google's apps can do, but [insert random app here] won't.
      - criddell 7y ago
        Do you know if you can shut that off? I'm sick of being asked if I want to open a link in some other application.
        penagwin 7y ago
        I don't personally know - but it would have to be a setting within the Gmail app itself AFAIK.
benologist 7y ago
I see it differently. Way back when Microsoft shipped Internet Explorer with Windows it ruined companies. We see companies being arbitrarily ruined by Apple's actions every month. This platform abuse triggered massive antitrust actions in the US and EU that Microsoft lost quite spectacularly, costing them a fortune and forcing many changes to their software. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browser_wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browser_wars
- esmi 7y ago
  Actually, in the US, Microsoft lost, won the appeal, then settled. Notice this key quote from below, "However, the DOJ did not require Microsoft to change any of its code nor prevent Microsoft from tying other software with Windows in the future." Not really a loss I would say. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....
- snowwrestler 7y ago
  Microsoft shipping IE in Windows did not ruin companies. What ruined companies (and what MS was actually prosecuted for) was Microsoft telling PC manufacturers "we will only sell you Windows OS if you agree to NOT install any other browsers on your computers." Those agreements were how MS abused their OS monopoly to wrongfully exclude other browsers from the market. Up to that point, Netscape was selling their browser direct to Dell, HP, Gateway, etc. to be preloaded on machines they sold. Microsoft was a supplier to PC companies and the market they distorted was the software supplier market. Apple themselves are the device manufacturer and have under 50% share in that market; it's not a comparable situation.
  - benologist 7y ago
    The similarity is ruining companies via abuse of their platform position, which doesn't depend on market share or monopoly or replicating Microsoft's particular malfeasance.
ferdbold 7y ago
Spotify was the 2nd result under Apple Music when I searched myself, though I have both installed so it probably came down to that
- rstupek 7y ago
  Spotify was 4th for me searching for "music" and I do not have it installed
LaMarseillaise 7y ago
I performed this search and Spotify is the 4th result, following Apple Music and two nearly exact matches (and not counting the ad). Also, the name is too long.
Betelgeuse90 7y ago
Spotify is 7th place for me. Apple Music is first. Maybe the country you're in makes a difference.
- frogpelt 7y ago
  Spotify 23rd was a reference to the article in the NY Times. It's 5th for me today, not including the Pandora ad at the top. Quote from the infographic in the article: "Before Apple Music arrived in the App Store, Spotify was for years the first result in searches for “music.” Shortly after Apple Music was added to the store in June 2016, it took the top spot. By then, Spotify had fallen to fourth place. In Feb. 2018, Apple apps suddenly appeared in the top six results for “music.” By the end of 2018, there were eight, some of which were unrelated to music. At this point, Spotify was the 23rd result. Spotify complained to European regulators in March that Apple was abusing its role as the gatekeeper of the App Store. By April, all but two of Apple’s apps disappeared from the top results for “music.”"
wodenokoto 7y ago
It's 4th for me, after something called "Playtune" that has a logo that's a ripoff of Youtube, and is placed in the "Photo and Video" category instead of the "Music" category. That still feels like Apple is penalising Spotify ...
fitzroy 7y ago
For me, Spotify is the 4th app when searching for "music", but it's the first app that doesn't contain the word "music" as the first or second word in the name. It goes: 1. Apple Music 2. Music 3. Music> 4. Spotify New music and podcasts
- bluedino 7y ago
  If I search Google for 'music', Spotify dooesn't come up on the first page either. YouTube - Music Channel music.youtube.com play.google.com/music play.google.com/store/music Music - Wikipedia MusicChoice.com Youtube Music on the App Store Mtv.com
  - kalleboo 7y ago
    I don't even get Spotify on the second page of results - but I do get articles from The Verge and TechCrunch about Spotify. Spotify itself shows up on the third page. For me Google even has a "Related search: Music platforms" box that contains YouTube, Google Play, SoundCloud, iTunes and TIDAL (no Spotify)
- makomk 7y ago
  According to the article, Apple quietly changed the ranking of Spotify after they complained to European antitrust regulators about it.
jbverschoor 7y ago
I think spotify used it's 100characters for keywords mainly for typos. If I search for "Music" on google (incognito, google.com), spotify is nr 16 (page 2).
lewisgodowski 7y ago
YMMV, I searched "music" and Spotify is the 4th result.
riantogo 7y ago
I feel you should be okay with that. It is just an extension of what you have accepted: Apple makes the hardware, software… and owns/controls the App Store.
saagarjha 7y ago
FYI, on my phone these are the results for "Music", in order: * Search ad for Spotify. * App Store story for "Run With Music". * Apple Music. * Some app called "Music". * Some app called "Music>". * Spotify. * YouTube Music. * SoundCloud.
thebigspacefuck 7y ago
When I was new to iOS, I wasn't always looking for alternatives. Sometimes finding out an app was already on my phone related to what I was searching for was genuinely helpful. I didn't realize that "Books" could play Audiobooks, for example. It didn't end up being the best app for me, but it was useful to see Books as a search result so I knew that it could do something I was looking for another app to do.

panpanna 7y ago

> Spotify being the 23rd result for a "music" search is absurd I have hard time believing this was not intentional. Edit: on Android Spotify is at place 2-4. iTunes is nowhere to be seen but that could be explained with the horrible reviews it has received (some are even legit).

mitchty 7y ago
I have a hard time believing it was. iTunes search is wicked bad and has been since day 1. After they started allowing tags for apps it got worse, which is an impressive achievement.
- panpanna 7y ago
  Note how this doesn't affect apples own apps?
- yoz-y 7y ago
  Judging from the sheer number of "ASO" companies that contacted me the week I put out an app on the store, I believe that the main problem is mainly really bad spam control.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Yeah, companies frequently put their competitors' names in their keywords. Not going to name any names, but it's particularly bad in the ride sharing industry.
- Fnoord 7y ago
  Play Store search is also (still) notoriously bad. Even if it is a 1:1 hit, it does not show that as first entry. And it is full with malware.
  - tombrossman 7y ago
    The advantage to using Google Play is that apps containing ads are clearly labelled as such. Apple won't tell you this in advance. (This was my biggest surprise, recently switching from Android after the CopperheadOS meltdown)
    - Fnoord 7y ago
      Honestly I care less about ads and more about trackers. Google Play says nada about trackers. Exodus project (and therefore F-Droid) does. If you come from CopperheadOS I can recommend /e/ or LineageOS + microG (/e/ also contains microG). microG does not implement GAds. You will still need to block trackers though.
      - ajscanlan 7y ago
        Does the iOS App Store mention if an app uses trackers?
        saagarjha 7y ago
        Nope. I would expect it to be difficult to analyze for that, at least with the amount of effort Apple is currently putting into App Store review.
      - tombrossman 7y ago
        I agree with you about the trackers, but I just assume ads=tracking. I cannot see any app marketplace saying their apps contain tracking in the main description (it's always buried in the fine print). My understanding is that GrapheneOS[0] is the successor to CopperheadOS, and I think that's what I'll try next. There isn't an Exodus Privacy or F-Droid for iOS and these are sorely missed. [0]https://grapheneos.org/ https://grapheneos.org/
- lern_too_spel 7y ago
  How can you put iMovie above Spotify in a search results for "music" without putting your thumb on the ranker?
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

noer 7y ago

>Spotify being the 23rd result for a "music" search is absurd. That search term is so broad it's difficult to figure out exactly what the users intent is for that. Do they want to listen to music? Do they want to create or record music? FWIW, I just searched for "music" and saw: An ad, a story ("run with music"), apple music, two music players I've never heard of and finally Spotify in position 6.

xenihn 7y ago
>That search term is so broad it's difficult to figure out exactly what the users intent is for that. Search optimization. Determine what most users ultimately end up selecting for specific queries, build up your data set over time, then weigh priorities and determine result order based on that.
- the_other 7y ago
  ... which might explain why Spotify ranks lower than the expectation here. Perhaps more people search for "spotify" when they want Spotify.
mthoms 7y ago
>That search term is so broad it's difficult to figure out exactly what the users intent is for that I disagree. It's broad in the sense that that the user could be searching for any number of things. It's not broad in the sense that the user is likely looking for a music listening app. Think of the real world equivalent. In common conversation when someone says "I like music", do you presume that they enjoy listening to, or making, music? I'd say the intent is pretty clear for the majority of users.

Wowfunhappy 7y ago

> However, when a user is clearly searching for alternatives on the app store, it matters how far down you have to scroll to find a 3rd party app. If I delete Apple's Calendar, install a third party Calendar app (like Fantastical), and click a date link, I'll get a message asking me if I want to reinstall Apple's Calendar. I think it's pretty darn clear in that scenario what the user actually wants.

umvi 7y ago
On the other hand, Apple products are (or were) frequently marketed towards the tech illiterate ("it just works") and so it's possible grandma accidentally deleted the calendar, tried to re-download via the App Store, downloaded the wrong one, etc.
- heavenlyblue 7y ago
  Gmail on iOS will open Google Chrome if you have it installed. I don't know how they do it, but they definitely are doing it.
  - penagwin 7y ago
    I believe the app itself (Gmail) is requesting to use Chrome. So each individual app would need to request Chrome, something I'm sure Google's apps can do, but [insert random app here] won't.
    - criddell 7y ago
      Do you know if you can shut that off? I'm sick of being asked if I want to open a link in some other application.
      - penagwin 7y ago
        I don't personally know - but it would have to be a setting within the Gmail app itself AFAIK.

benologist 7y ago

I see it differently. Way back when Microsoft shipped Internet Explorer with Windows it ruined companies. We see companies being arbitrarily ruined by Apple's actions every month. This platform abuse triggered massive antitrust actions in the US and EU that Microsoft lost quite spectacularly, costing them a fortune and forcing many changes to their software. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browser_wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browser_wars

esmi 7y ago
Actually, in the US, Microsoft lost, won the appeal, then settled. Notice this key quote from below, "However, the DOJ did not require Microsoft to change any of its code nor prevent Microsoft from tying other software with Windows in the future." Not really a loss I would say. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....
snowwrestler 7y ago
Microsoft shipping IE in Windows did not ruin companies. What ruined companies (and what MS was actually prosecuted for) was Microsoft telling PC manufacturers "we will only sell you Windows OS if you agree to NOT install any other browsers on your computers." Those agreements were how MS abused their OS monopoly to wrongfully exclude other browsers from the market. Up to that point, Netscape was selling their browser direct to Dell, HP, Gateway, etc. to be preloaded on machines they sold. Microsoft was a supplier to PC companies and the market they distorted was the software supplier market. Apple themselves are the device manufacturer and have under 50% share in that market; it's not a comparable situation.
- benologist 7y ago
  The similarity is ruining companies via abuse of their platform position, which doesn't depend on market share or monopoly or replicating Microsoft's particular malfeasance.

ferdbold 7y ago

Spotify was the 2nd result under Apple Music when I searched myself, though I have both installed so it probably came down to that

rstupek 7y ago
Spotify was 4th for me searching for "music" and I do not have it installed

LaMarseillaise 7y ago

I performed this search and Spotify is the 4th result, following Apple Music and two nearly exact matches (and not counting the ad). Also, the name is too long.

Betelgeuse90 7y ago

Spotify is 7th place for me. Apple Music is first. Maybe the country you're in makes a difference.

frogpelt 7y ago
Spotify 23rd was a reference to the article in the NY Times. It's 5th for me today, not including the Pandora ad at the top. Quote from the infographic in the article: "Before Apple Music arrived in the App Store, Spotify was for years the first result in searches for “music.” Shortly after Apple Music was added to the store in June 2016, it took the top spot. By then, Spotify had fallen to fourth place. In Feb. 2018, Apple apps suddenly appeared in the top six results for “music.” By the end of 2018, there were eight, some of which were unrelated to music. At this point, Spotify was the 23rd result. Spotify complained to European regulators in March that Apple was abusing its role as the gatekeeper of the App Store. By April, all but two of Apple’s apps disappeared from the top results for “music.”"

wodenokoto 7y ago

It's 4th for me, after something called "Playtune" that has a logo that's a ripoff of Youtube, and is placed in the "Photo and Video" category instead of the "Music" category. That still feels like Apple is penalising Spotify ...

fitzroy 7y ago

For me, Spotify is the 4th app when searching for "music", but it's the first app that doesn't contain the word "music" as the first or second word in the name. It goes: 1. Apple Music 2. Music 3. Music> 4. Spotify New music and podcasts

bluedino 7y ago
If I search Google for 'music', Spotify dooesn't come up on the first page either. YouTube - Music Channel music.youtube.com play.google.com/music play.google.com/store/music Music - Wikipedia MusicChoice.com Youtube Music on the App Store Mtv.com
- kalleboo 7y ago
  I don't even get Spotify on the second page of results - but I do get articles from The Verge and TechCrunch about Spotify. Spotify itself shows up on the third page. For me Google even has a "Related search: Music platforms" box that contains YouTube, Google Play, SoundCloud, iTunes and TIDAL (no Spotify)
makomk 7y ago
According to the article, Apple quietly changed the ranking of Spotify after they complained to European antitrust regulators about it.

jbverschoor 7y ago

I think spotify used it's 100characters for keywords mainly for typos. If I search for "Music" on google (incognito, google.com), spotify is nr 16 (page 2).

lewisgodowski 7y ago

YMMV, I searched "music" and Spotify is the 4th result.

riantogo 7y ago

I feel you should be okay with that. It is just an extension of what you have accepted: Apple makes the hardware, software… and owns/controls the App Store.

saagarjha 7y ago

FYI, on my phone these are the results for "Music", in order: * Search ad for Spotify. * App Store story for "Run With Music". * Apple Music. * Some app called "Music". * Some app called "Music>". * Spotify. * YouTube Music. * SoundCloud.

thebigspacefuck 7y ago

When I was new to iOS, I wasn't always looking for alternatives. Sometimes finding out an app was already on my phone related to what I was searching for was genuinely helpful. I didn't realize that "Books" could play Audiobooks, for example. It didn't end up being the best app for me, but it was useful to see Books as a search result so I knew that it could do something I was looking for another app to do.