5 ms·

I just tell them how much time off I'll need during salary negotiations. I know you offer two weeks PTO and 3 weeks after 5 year, 4 weeks after 10 years etc. Bu

I just tell them how much time off I'll need during salary negotiations. I know you offer two weeks PTO and 3 weeks after 5 year, 4 weeks after 10 years etc. But I'm not restarting my PTO every time I switch companies. So I will come in with PTO equal to my experience at a minimum.

psim1 7y ago
Has this approach actually worked for you? In all places I have worked, PTO is a non-negotiable, other than "I already have this vacation/trip lined up for two months from now and require the time off," which is okayed even if it's outside of their normal new-hire policy.
- iamthepieman 7y ago
  Yes, I negotiated an extra week at my current job and my last one.
scarface74 7y ago
PTO is nothing special. It’s just another benefit you can place a monetary amount on. If they won’t give you more than two weeks paid time off and they will let you take unpaid time off, add the amount that week of unpaid time off is worth to your required salary - of course take into account that PTO is a non taxed benefit. I feel the same way about 401K matching.
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  Ok, but how can you value 401K tax benefits? It seems complicated.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Simple. For nice round numbers. Say you’re making $140K (above the social security maximum to make the calculations slightly simpler). A 5% match is $7000. But since it is an untaxed employee benefit and if I think I can already max out my 401K plan, I would have to take into account the 24% Federal 6% state (GA), and 1.4% Medicare tax - 31.4% That means I would need to negotiate at least 7000/.686 = $10,204 extra.
    - toast0 7y ago
      Employer contributions are tax deferred, not untaxed. Assuming you don't trigger penalties, you'll pay ordinary income on that down the line. I wouldn't expect to retire into a 0% tax bracket, especially if you're maxing the employee contribution.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        Many companies offer Roth as an option for a 401K and will put your match into it. So they would be completely untaxed.
        toast0 7y ago
        You can put the employee contribution into Roth, but the employer contribution is almost certainly going into traditional; I don't believe there is a provision for employer match into Roth. (Working on the link) https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/retirement-plans-faqs-on-designated-roth-accounts#10 https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/retirement-plans-faqs-o...
        scarface74 7y ago
        Today I Learned..... And if I had kept reading the link I found (but didn't post) https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/102714/are-roth-401k-plans-matched-employers.asp https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/102714/are-roth-401... Unlike the employee's contribution, however, the employer's contribution is placed into a traditional 401(k) plan, and it is taxable upon withdrawal. The employee's into a Roth 401(k). Therefore, many employers have found the additional administrative demands of offering the Roth 401(k) outweigh the benefits to their employees and do not often offer one. This is the reason for the perception, or misconception, that employers cannot provide a match to Roth 401(k) employee contributions, when in reality, they are simply not providing the option for the plan at all due to the administrative hassle.
      - astura 7y ago
        While true, one doesn't normally have a tax rate that high when they withdraw from their 401ks, so their taxes will probably be less. Capital gains are untaxed in a 401k. Depends on the person and how they handle their finances.
- iamthepieman 7y ago
  yeah sure but depending on the company it's easier to take PTO than UPTO. People expect you to take all your PTO generally. That's not always true if it's unpaid.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    I know, and I said and they will let you take unpaid time off
- Stratoscope 7y ago
  > PTO is a non taxed benefit. I'm not sure what you mean by that, but income from PTO/vacation/sick leave is taxed the same as any other income.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    If you make 140400 a year and are getting 2 weeks of vacation. You are making $2700 a week. If you took another week off of unpaid time off. You will lose $2700 for that year. If they gave you an extra week of vacation. Your taxes wouldn’t change. If instead they gave you an extra $2700 in salary and you took a week off of unpaid time off, you have to pay 24% in Federal taxes on that income + 1.45% in Medicare (you are already over the social security maximum). You would need to make $3621 more just to start breaking even ($2700/(1 - .24 - .0145)). But even then you are paying taxes on the extra 3621-2700. I’m sure there is some formula to break even but I would just ask for an extra $4000 and call it a day.
    - jrjarrett 7y ago
      Assuming you CAN take unpaid time off, and not have that penalize you.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        From my original post... ....and they will let you take unpaid time off....
    - Stratoscope 7y ago
      What you're saying is that your net income after taxes is less than your gross income. Of course that is true, and the exact numbers will vary for every individual. Naturally you should always take the difference between gross and net into account in any financial decisions. That wasn't what I was addressing, I was only commenting on this: "PTO is a non taxed benefit." Someone could misinterpret that and think "I pay taxes on my salary, but PTO is not taxed." But the money you're paid for PTO is salary. If you have accrued PTO and leave a company, when you get your final check you will find that the PTO payout is taxed as ordinary income, just like all of your other paychecks. And while you are at a company, the income you receive from any PTO days is also taxed as ordinary income, no different from a day that you actually work. That was the only issue I wanted to clarify.
roland35 7y ago
I agree it is terrible to reset the seniority clock after 10 years! I found it very difficult to negotiate this as well, but if you're hiring a senior position do you expect applicants to be happy about losing 1-2 weeks vacation time??
- iamthepieman 7y ago
  It's worked for me by treating this as a given (given that I will be working for them, I will be at least maintaining the PTO that I had at my previous company) and by offering alternatives for HR. Sometimes companies have personal time that is separate from PTO. You often won't get this time paid out to you if you quit and still have hours but since I plan on using it all every year that's not a big problem. Some companies can give you extra floating holidays or other types of time off to make up the difference. You usually only have to resort to that if the HR system is inflexible and someone is making a big deal about it. A blanket statement that we don't do that, can't do that and won't think about doing that is usually a bad sign.

psim1 7y ago

Has this approach actually worked for you? In all places I have worked, PTO is a non-negotiable, other than "I already have this vacation/trip lined up for two months from now and require the time off," which is okayed even if it's outside of their normal new-hire policy.

iamthepieman 7y ago
Yes, I negotiated an extra week at my current job and my last one.

scarface74 7y ago

PTO is nothing special. It’s just another benefit you can place a monetary amount on. If they won’t give you more than two weeks paid time off and they will let you take unpaid time off, add the amount that week of unpaid time off is worth to your required salary - of course take into account that PTO is a non taxed benefit. I feel the same way about 401K matching.

JoeAltmaier 7y ago
Ok, but how can you value 401K tax benefits? It seems complicated.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Simple. For nice round numbers. Say you’re making $140K (above the social security maximum to make the calculations slightly simpler). A 5% match is $7000. But since it is an untaxed employee benefit and if I think I can already max out my 401K plan, I would have to take into account the 24% Federal 6% state (GA), and 1.4% Medicare tax - 31.4% That means I would need to negotiate at least 7000/.686 = $10,204 extra.
  - toast0 7y ago
    Employer contributions are tax deferred, not untaxed. Assuming you don't trigger penalties, you'll pay ordinary income on that down the line. I wouldn't expect to retire into a 0% tax bracket, especially if you're maxing the employee contribution.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      Many companies offer Roth as an option for a 401K and will put your match into it. So they would be completely untaxed.
      - toast0 7y ago
        You can put the employee contribution into Roth, but the employer contribution is almost certainly going into traditional; I don't believe there is a provision for employer match into Roth. (Working on the link) https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/retirement-plans-faqs-on-designated-roth-accounts#10 https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/retirement-plans-faqs-o...
        scarface74 7y ago
        Today I Learned..... And if I had kept reading the link I found (but didn't post) https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/102714/are-roth-401k-plans-matched-employers.asp https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/102714/are-roth-401... Unlike the employee's contribution, however, the employer's contribution is placed into a traditional 401(k) plan, and it is taxable upon withdrawal. The employee's into a Roth 401(k). Therefore, many employers have found the additional administrative demands of offering the Roth 401(k) outweigh the benefits to their employees and do not often offer one. This is the reason for the perception, or misconception, that employers cannot provide a match to Roth 401(k) employee contributions, when in reality, they are simply not providing the option for the plan at all due to the administrative hassle.
    - astura 7y ago
      While true, one doesn't normally have a tax rate that high when they withdraw from their 401ks, so their taxes will probably be less. Capital gains are untaxed in a 401k. Depends on the person and how they handle their finances.
iamthepieman 7y ago
yeah sure but depending on the company it's easier to take PTO than UPTO. People expect you to take all your PTO generally. That's not always true if it's unpaid.
- scarface74 7y ago
  I know, and I said and they will let you take unpaid time off
Stratoscope 7y ago
> PTO is a non taxed benefit. I'm not sure what you mean by that, but income from PTO/vacation/sick leave is taxed the same as any other income.
- scarface74 7y ago
  If you make 140400 a year and are getting 2 weeks of vacation. You are making $2700 a week. If you took another week off of unpaid time off. You will lose $2700 for that year. If they gave you an extra week of vacation. Your taxes wouldn’t change. If instead they gave you an extra $2700 in salary and you took a week off of unpaid time off, you have to pay 24% in Federal taxes on that income + 1.45% in Medicare (you are already over the social security maximum). You would need to make $3621 more just to start breaking even ($2700/(1 - .24 - .0145)). But even then you are paying taxes on the extra 3621-2700. I’m sure there is some formula to break even but I would just ask for an extra $4000 and call it a day.
  - jrjarrett 7y ago
    Assuming you CAN take unpaid time off, and not have that penalize you.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      From my original post... ....and they will let you take unpaid time off....
  - Stratoscope 7y ago
    What you're saying is that your net income after taxes is less than your gross income. Of course that is true, and the exact numbers will vary for every individual. Naturally you should always take the difference between gross and net into account in any financial decisions. That wasn't what I was addressing, I was only commenting on this: "PTO is a non taxed benefit." Someone could misinterpret that and think "I pay taxes on my salary, but PTO is not taxed." But the money you're paid for PTO is salary. If you have accrued PTO and leave a company, when you get your final check you will find that the PTO payout is taxed as ordinary income, just like all of your other paychecks. And while you are at a company, the income you receive from any PTO days is also taxed as ordinary income, no different from a day that you actually work. That was the only issue I wanted to clarify.

roland35 7y ago

I agree it is terrible to reset the seniority clock after 10 years! I found it very difficult to negotiate this as well, but if you're hiring a senior position do you expect applicants to be happy about losing 1-2 weeks vacation time??

iamthepieman 7y ago
It's worked for me by treating this as a given (given that I will be working for them, I will be at least maintaining the PTO that I had at my previous company) and by offering alternatives for HR. Sometimes companies have personal time that is separate from PTO. You often won't get this time paid out to you if you quit and still have hours but since I plan on using it all every year that's not a big problem. Some companies can give you extra floating holidays or other types of time off to make up the difference. You usually only have to resort to that if the HR system is inflexible and someone is making a big deal about it. A blanket statement that we don't do that, can't do that and won't think about doing that is usually a bad sign.