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How much annual / personal / sick / parental / unpaid leave is available? This is a great question; when I have searched for jobs, it's one of the more importa

How much annual / personal / sick / parental / unpaid leave is available? This is a great question; when I have searched for jobs, it's one of the more important benefits to me. Sadly, however, I've found most places have gone to "PTO" -- combining time off for illness and vacation into one bank -- how have others successfully negotiated an appropriate level of time off? (Context: For a very long time, I worked for companies where sick time was essentially a non-issue; it was essentially unlimited, with appropriate rules around requiring a doctor's explanation or having to switch to short-term disability after a protracted period, but the occasional day or two to recover from a cold and not spread virus to the whole company without having to choose between that and visiting family.)

iamthepieman 7y ago
I just tell them how much time off I'll need during salary negotiations. I know you offer two weeks PTO and 3 weeks after 5 year, 4 weeks after 10 years etc. But I'm not restarting my PTO every time I switch companies. So I will come in with PTO equal to my experience at a minimum.
- psim1 7y ago
  Has this approach actually worked for you? In all places I have worked, PTO is a non-negotiable, other than "I already have this vacation/trip lined up for two months from now and require the time off," which is okayed even if it's outside of their normal new-hire policy.
  - iamthepieman 7y ago
    Yes, I negotiated an extra week at my current job and my last one.
- scarface74 7y ago
  PTO is nothing special. It’s just another benefit you can place a monetary amount on. If they won’t give you more than two weeks paid time off and they will let you take unpaid time off, add the amount that week of unpaid time off is worth to your required salary - of course take into account that PTO is a non taxed benefit. I feel the same way about 401K matching.
  - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
    Ok, but how can you value 401K tax benefits? It seems complicated.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      Simple. For nice round numbers. Say you’re making $140K (above the social security maximum to make the calculations slightly simpler). A 5% match is $7000. But since it is an untaxed employee benefit and if I think I can already max out my 401K plan, I would have to take into account the 24% Federal 6% state (GA), and 1.4% Medicare tax - 31.4% That means I would need to negotiate at least 7000/.686 = $10,204 extra.
      - toast0 7y ago
        Employer contributions are tax deferred, not untaxed. Assuming you don't trigger penalties, you'll pay ordinary income on that down the line. I wouldn't expect to retire into a 0% tax bracket, especially if you're maxing the employee contribution.
        scarface74 7y ago
        Many companies offer Roth as an option for a 401K and will put your match into it. So they would be completely untaxed.
        toast0 7y ago
        You can put the employee contribution into Roth, but the employer contribution is almost certainly going into traditional; I don't believe there is a provision for employer match into Roth. (Working on the link) https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/retirement-plans-faqs-on-designated-roth-accounts#10 https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/retirement-plans-faqs-o...
        scarface74 7y ago
- roland35 7y ago
  I agree it is terrible to reset the seniority clock after 10 years! I found it very difficult to negotiate this as well, but if you're hiring a senior position do you expect applicants to be happy about losing 1-2 weeks vacation time??
  - iamthepieman 7y ago
    It's worked for me by treating this as a given (given that I will be working for them, I will be at least maintaining the PTO that I had at my previous company) and by offering alternatives for HR. Sometimes companies have personal time that is separate from PTO. You often won't get this time paid out to you if you quit and still have hours but since I plan on using it all every year that's not a big problem. Some companies can give you extra floating holidays or other types of time off to make up the difference. You usually only have to resort to that if the HR system is inflexible and someone is making a big deal about it. A blanket statement that we don't do that, can't do that and won't think about doing that is usually a bad sign.
ed312 7y ago
You generally have to offer the same benefits to everyone in a company (at least in MA). The easiest way to do that is to offer "PTO" as a bucket to everyone. The new "cool" way to do it is to have "unlimited PTO" ... which I have pretty mixed feelings about.
- PhoenixReborn 7y ago
  Unlimited PTO means you're at the mercy of the company, pretty much. I am lucky to work for a company with unlimited PTO where most people take 4-6 weeks off per year. Other places are far less lucky.
  - roland35 7y ago
    It would be nice to have a written expectation, but that kind of defeats the purpose!
- lkschubert8 7y ago
  I work for a place that has "unlimited PTO" and must say I'm not a fan. You have employees like me who fear taking off too much getting yelled at by HR to take more time off (but how much more??). And on the flipside the higher ups make snide remarks about people who take 20+ days off. From my understanding unlimited is code for in the high teens.
  - eb0la 7y ago
    I wonder if you have operations in Europe. Standard here in Spain is 30 days off (including weekends and bank holidays). Most companies just offer 22 working days. I worked for one that offered 24.
    - lkschubert8 7y ago
      No we are just a local office in the US.
- theli0nheart 7y ago
oblio 7y ago
It's a bit sad though. In many countries you don't have to ask this because there're legally enforced minimums.

iamthepieman 7y ago

I just tell them how much time off I'll need during salary negotiations. I know you offer two weeks PTO and 3 weeks after 5 year, 4 weeks after 10 years etc. But I'm not restarting my PTO every time I switch companies. So I will come in with PTO equal to my experience at a minimum.

psim1 7y ago
Has this approach actually worked for you? In all places I have worked, PTO is a non-negotiable, other than "I already have this vacation/trip lined up for two months from now and require the time off," which is okayed even if it's outside of their normal new-hire policy.
- iamthepieman 7y ago
  Yes, I negotiated an extra week at my current job and my last one.
scarface74 7y ago
PTO is nothing special. It’s just another benefit you can place a monetary amount on. If they won’t give you more than two weeks paid time off and they will let you take unpaid time off, add the amount that week of unpaid time off is worth to your required salary - of course take into account that PTO is a non taxed benefit. I feel the same way about 401K matching.
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  Ok, but how can you value 401K tax benefits? It seems complicated.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Simple. For nice round numbers. Say you’re making $140K (above the social security maximum to make the calculations slightly simpler). A 5% match is $7000. But since it is an untaxed employee benefit and if I think I can already max out my 401K plan, I would have to take into account the 24% Federal 6% state (GA), and 1.4% Medicare tax - 31.4% That means I would need to negotiate at least 7000/.686 = $10,204 extra.
    - toast0 7y ago
      Employer contributions are tax deferred, not untaxed. Assuming you don't trigger penalties, you'll pay ordinary income on that down the line. I wouldn't expect to retire into a 0% tax bracket, especially if you're maxing the employee contribution.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        Many companies offer Roth as an option for a 401K and will put your match into it. So they would be completely untaxed.
        toast0 7y ago
        You can put the employee contribution into Roth, but the employer contribution is almost certainly going into traditional; I don't believe there is a provision for employer match into Roth. (Working on the link) https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/retirement-plans-faqs-on-designated-roth-accounts#10 https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/retirement-plans-faqs-o...
        scarface74 7y ago
roland35 7y ago
I agree it is terrible to reset the seniority clock after 10 years! I found it very difficult to negotiate this as well, but if you're hiring a senior position do you expect applicants to be happy about losing 1-2 weeks vacation time??
- iamthepieman 7y ago
  It's worked for me by treating this as a given (given that I will be working for them, I will be at least maintaining the PTO that I had at my previous company) and by offering alternatives for HR. Sometimes companies have personal time that is separate from PTO. You often won't get this time paid out to you if you quit and still have hours but since I plan on using it all every year that's not a big problem. Some companies can give you extra floating holidays or other types of time off to make up the difference. You usually only have to resort to that if the HR system is inflexible and someone is making a big deal about it. A blanket statement that we don't do that, can't do that and won't think about doing that is usually a bad sign.

ed312 7y ago

You generally have to offer the same benefits to everyone in a company (at least in MA). The easiest way to do that is to offer "PTO" as a bucket to everyone. The new "cool" way to do it is to have "unlimited PTO" ... which I have pretty mixed feelings about.

PhoenixReborn 7y ago
Unlimited PTO means you're at the mercy of the company, pretty much. I am lucky to work for a company with unlimited PTO where most people take 4-6 weeks off per year. Other places are far less lucky.
- roland35 7y ago
  It would be nice to have a written expectation, but that kind of defeats the purpose!
lkschubert8 7y ago
I work for a place that has "unlimited PTO" and must say I'm not a fan. You have employees like me who fear taking off too much getting yelled at by HR to take more time off (but how much more??). And on the flipside the higher ups make snide remarks about people who take 20+ days off. From my understanding unlimited is code for in the high teens.
- eb0la 7y ago
  I wonder if you have operations in Europe. Standard here in Spain is 30 days off (including weekends and bank holidays). Most companies just offer 22 working days. I worked for one that offered 24.
  - lkschubert8 7y ago
    No we are just a local office in the US.
theli0nheart 7y ago

oblio 7y ago

It's a bit sad though. In many countries you don't have to ask this because there're legally enforced minimums.