5 ms·

Are there any related books that should be read along with Thinking in Systems?

asplake 7y ago
John Gall (of Gall’s law fame), Systemantics
greywolve 7y ago
A few off the top of my head: - Business Dynamics: Systems Thinking and Modeling for a Complex World (This is one I still want to really work through, it's very comprehensive) -Drift into Failure -Systems Thinking For Social Change -The Fifth Discipline: The Art & Practice of The Learning Organization
f_allwein 7y ago
Classic on the British perspective of Soft Systems Methodology: Systems Thinking, Systems Practice by Peter Checkland https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Systems+Thinking%2C+Systems+Practice%3A+Includes+a+30+Year+Retrospective-p-9780471986065 https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Systems+Thinking%2C+Systems+Prac...
ismail 7y ago
Here is an extensive list i posted previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19835208 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19835208 I have a much larger set of resources. If others would be keen i could structure and categorize it and post it.
- chrisweekly 7y ago
  Thanks! Interested / +1 for "structure and categorize and post".
jacques_chester 7y ago
If you read one book, make it Sterman's Business Dynamics, which hits the sweet spot between systems-as-woo and systems-as-calculus-homework. The original hardback is out of print and very expensive, but there are cheap international editions available now.
- plinkplonk 7y ago
  Thanks for the reccomendation. I read Meadows's book and it felt a little too "woo" to me. I mean, I sense there is something very valuable there, but past the initial sections, I somehow felt I was reading a New Age fluff book. I can't put my finger on it. Could you recommend some 'systems-as-calculus-homework'(ha! great description) books as well? Thanks in advance.
  - MathematicalArt 7y ago
    Any engineering books on control theory and signal processing is systems theory using mathematics such as linear algebra, differential equations, etc. The reason why books like Meadow’s are so light on the math is that there is already a large body of works that use the mathematics. Books light on the math are meant to accessibly extend the philosophy to those who may feel they do not have the proper math background. “Modern Control Theory” by Katsuhiko Ogata applies the theory to thermal systems, fluid systems, mechanical, electrical, etc. “Discrete-Time Signal Processing” by Alan V. Oppenheim is a great book on its subject. Both are related to analytical approaches to systems thinking.
  - jacques_chester 7y ago
    Mathematics is definitely a weakness I feel acutely as I press up against the boundary between knowing-about and knowing-how-to-do. I'd say the next book to read in a formal direction is Hartmut Bossel's Systems and Models, which happily dives into the calculus. Then, as my sibling comment explains, control theory, signal processing and information theory are major influences on various branches of systems thought (systems dynamics, cybernetics and so on). That said, as Sterman points out, many interesting problems can't be solved analytically and require simulation in order to come up with useful approximations. Furthermore a page of sigils is comprehensible to relatively few people: a systems model is useful only insofar as people will believe its descriptive, predictive and prescriptive qualities. If they don't understand it, they won't trust it and will ultimately ignore it. Systems dynamics and other simulation approaches (particularly discrete event simulation and agent-based modelling) are much easier to explain and verify qualitatively with subject-matter experts and end users. Definitely read Sterman first, nobody else has such a thorough treatment of the field.
di4na 7y ago
Sydney Dekker "The Field Guide to Understanding 'Human Error'"
sifar 7y ago
An Introduction to General Systems Thinking by Gerald M. Weinberg
spodek 7y ago
Limits to Growth, the 30 Year Update Many videos: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=donella+meadows&atb=v173-1&iax=videos&ia=videos https://duckduckgo.com/?q=donella+meadows&atb=v173-1&iax=vid... Many Dennis Meadows (her husband) videos: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=dennis+meadows&atb=v173-1&iar=videos&iax=videos&ia=videos https://duckduckgo.com/?q=dennis+meadows&atb=v173-1&iar=vide...

John Gall (of Gall’s law fame), Systemantics

A few off the top of my head: - Business Dynamics: Systems Thinking and Modeling for a Complex World (This is one I still want to really work through, it's very comprehensive) -Drift into Failure -Systems Thinking For Social Change -The Fifth Discipline: The Art & Practice of The Learning Organization

f_allwein 7y ago

Classic on the British perspective of Soft Systems Methodology: Systems Thinking, Systems Practice by Peter Checkland https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Systems+Thinking%2C+Systems+Practice%3A+Includes+a+30+Year+Retrospective-p-9780471986065 https://www.wiley.com/en-us/Systems+Thinking%2C+Systems+Prac...

ismail 7y ago

Here is an extensive list i posted previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19835208 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19835208 I have a much larger set of resources. If others would be keen i could structure and categorize it and post it.

chrisweekly 7y ago
Thanks! Interested / +1 for "structure and categorize and post".

jacques_chester 7y ago

If you read one book, make it Sterman's Business Dynamics, which hits the sweet spot between systems-as-woo and systems-as-calculus-homework. The original hardback is out of print and very expensive, but there are cheap international editions available now.

plinkplonk 7y ago
Thanks for the reccomendation. I read Meadows's book and it felt a little too "woo" to me. I mean, I sense there is something very valuable there, but past the initial sections, I somehow felt I was reading a New Age fluff book. I can't put my finger on it. Could you recommend some 'systems-as-calculus-homework'(ha! great description) books as well? Thanks in advance.
- MathematicalArt 7y ago
  Any engineering books on control theory and signal processing is systems theory using mathematics such as linear algebra, differential equations, etc. The reason why books like Meadow’s are so light on the math is that there is already a large body of works that use the mathematics. Books light on the math are meant to accessibly extend the philosophy to those who may feel they do not have the proper math background. “Modern Control Theory” by Katsuhiko Ogata applies the theory to thermal systems, fluid systems, mechanical, electrical, etc. “Discrete-Time Signal Processing” by Alan V. Oppenheim is a great book on its subject. Both are related to analytical approaches to systems thinking.
- jacques_chester 7y ago
  Mathematics is definitely a weakness I feel acutely as I press up against the boundary between knowing-about and knowing-how-to-do. I'd say the next book to read in a formal direction is Hartmut Bossel's Systems and Models, which happily dives into the calculus. Then, as my sibling comment explains, control theory, signal processing and information theory are major influences on various branches of systems thought (systems dynamics, cybernetics and so on). That said, as Sterman points out, many interesting problems can't be solved analytically and require simulation in order to come up with useful approximations. Furthermore a page of sigils is comprehensible to relatively few people: a systems model is useful only insofar as people will believe its descriptive, predictive and prescriptive qualities. If they don't understand it, they won't trust it and will ultimately ignore it. Systems dynamics and other simulation approaches (particularly discrete event simulation and agent-based modelling) are much easier to explain and verify qualitatively with subject-matter experts and end users. Definitely read Sterman first, nobody else has such a thorough treatment of the field.

di4na 7y ago

Sydney Dekker "The Field Guide to Understanding 'Human Error'"

sifar 7y ago

An Introduction to General Systems Thinking by Gerald M. Weinberg

spodek 7y ago

Limits to Growth, the 30 Year Update Many videos: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=donella+meadows&atb=v173-1&iax=videos&ia=videos https://duckduckgo.com/?q=donella+meadows&atb=v173-1&iax=vid... Many Dennis Meadows (her husband) videos: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=dennis+meadows&atb=v173-1&iar=videos&iax=videos&ia=videos https://duckduckgo.com/?q=dennis+meadows&atb=v173-1&iar=vide...