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> The other is almost entirely a mixture of Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin. What an extraordinary meaningless statement. The question is the health ef

> The other is almost entirely a mixture of Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin. What an extraordinary meaningless statement. The question is the health effects of vaporizing those and inhaling them (along with other ingredients). You are happy to provide links about health effects of cigarettes, including ingredients present in n minute amounts, but will only provide a list of major ingredients in vaping products and provide no evidence on whether inhaling them is safe or not. I believe the current scientific consensus is that more research is needed. These are fairly new products and studies have only started. There are definite impacts on the lung physiology and the heating process does cause chemical reactions between flavorants and the carrying solution creating new compounds such that even if the flavorants and major ingredients are safe independently (which they aren't, see next link), there are byproducts that are produce that may not be[2]. The glycerol in commercial vaping solution seems to be a source of impurities that are known to be harmful[3]. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31483291 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31483291 [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30335174 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30335174 [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31460462 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31460462

DanBC 7y ago
Is the question "is vaping harmful?" (because it probably is) or "is vaping about as harmful as smoking?" (because it almost certainly isn't).
- teknopaul 7y ago
  Unless vaping makes you smoke more compared to cigarettes. In my experience it does. Nicoteen us crazily addictive whatever form you provide it in people will do that too much. The more convenient the more they will do it.
  - alexandercrohde 7y ago
    I don't think even this is true. The nicotine isn't really what's bad for you, it's the smoke and 600+ carcinogens in cigarette smoke. I'd imagine it'd be safer to vape 10x than smoke 1x.
  - otakucode 7y ago
    That has not been my experience. With a cigarette, once you start it going, you basically need to finish the whole thing in a short period of time. If you really only wanted one or two drags, sorry, you're down for 10 minutes or so of smoke. (Or you could put it out and waste it, but given how expensive cigarettes are I doubt many smokers are inclined to do that.) With vaping, you can take one drag and put it down. Figuring out the volume or amount of nicotine consumed would be very complicated. And, of course, most of the negative effects of smoking have nothing to do with nicotine and it seems if there are negative effects from vaping, those will likely also not come from the nicotine itself.
jdietrich 7y ago
I don't have time to thoroughly examine your references right now, but I can tell you off the bat that the third study is very poor - they measured vapor samples at 500°F and 600°F, which is substantially in excess of normal vaping temperatures and would almost certainly produce an acrid, foul-tasting vapor. The presence of CO in the vapor samples clearly indicates oxidation rather than vaporisation. Of course you get lots of nasty byproducts if you burn the liquid.
- Reelin 7y ago
  I think what's going on there is that one of the e-cigs they used had a configurable temperature (200-600 °F). I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they selected a reasonable one (they don't appear to specify in the methods). Separately, there's the GC-MS machine - oven (30 - 220 °C ramp) and inlet (320 °C). This shouldn't be (much of) an issue though, as an inert carrier gas is used. Plus you always have controls, so if the GC-MS itself is tearing things apart it should hopefully be obvious. That being said, I didn't see anything particularly concerning listed in their results (relative to recreational cigarette or alcohol consumption).
  - teknopaul 7y ago
    Recreational cigarette smoking? I've never met such a creature. Your either hooked or your not.
    - otakucode 7y ago
      In the medical literature there is a classification referred to as a "chipper" who generally smokes only 1 or 2 cigarettes a week on average. Humans are many and varied.
Reelin 7y ago
> > The other is almost entirely a mixture of Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin. > What an extraordinary meaningless statement. Not at all. The point being made is that we're dealing with a product composed primarily (99%) of two chemicals that are very clearly established as safe for human consumption (propylene glycol is commonly _injected_). As such, it seems unreasonable to assume absent evidence that the chemicals themselves would pose any significant threat to health. That leaves other additives (which I noted) and the inhalation itself (which I also noted). As I stated in my previous comment, chronic inhalation of anything is likely to be bad for your health. You really seem to have missed the context of the question I was responding to - it asked not about absolute safety, but rather safety relative to cigarette consumption. Yes, as you note, there is always the potential for chemical reactions when mixtures are heated. Given the particular chemical composition and temperatures involved, I'm not personally concerned absent solid evidence. None of the byproducts listed in the study you linked appear particularly worrisome to me. Compared to cigarette, weed, or wood smoke, the contents of vaping such aerosols appears downright healthy. (Only in comparison, of course!) Rereading my previous comment, something I failed to mention is the risk of inhaling things that are too hot. Depending on what temperature the aerosol is heated to, it could burn you internally (but then we're comparing this to inhaling burning plant matter, so... meh). > I believe the current scientific consensus is that more research is needed. To establish what, their precise negative health effects? Of course. But not to establish that they are safer than smoking cigarettes - there's absolutely no question about that.
- Retric 7y ago
  Fog machines also use a glycol solution, and have been shown to be harmful. Thus vaping glycol may not be safe. https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports/pdfs/1990-0355-2449.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports/pdfs/1990-0355-2449.pd...
  - Reelin 7y ago
    The report you linked shows quite the opposite, actually. They concluded: > Based on the results of this study, there is no evidence that theatrical "smoke," at the levels found in the theaters studied, is a cause of occupational asthma among performers. That being said, chronic exposure is probably not good for you. From a health perspective, don't inhale anything other than air!
wastedhours 7y ago
>> The other is almost entirely a mixture of Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin. > What an extraordinary meaningless statement. >> ...except when it isn't Emphasis on "except when it isn't" which highlights the other impurities that might be there. I found the comment to be useful at highlighting what it was designed to highlight - that the safety depends entirely on what's inside the carts. You have no guarantees with some suppliers what the heck's actually inside, and I think saying "it's fairly simple at the base, but rather complicated in reality" is quite helpful for framing.

DanBC 7y ago

Is the question "is vaping harmful?" (because it probably is) or "is vaping about as harmful as smoking?" (because it almost certainly isn't).

teknopaul 7y ago
Unless vaping makes you smoke more compared to cigarettes. In my experience it does. Nicoteen us crazily addictive whatever form you provide it in people will do that too much. The more convenient the more they will do it.
- alexandercrohde 7y ago
  I don't think even this is true. The nicotine isn't really what's bad for you, it's the smoke and 600+ carcinogens in cigarette smoke. I'd imagine it'd be safer to vape 10x than smoke 1x.
- otakucode 7y ago
  That has not been my experience. With a cigarette, once you start it going, you basically need to finish the whole thing in a short period of time. If you really only wanted one or two drags, sorry, you're down for 10 minutes or so of smoke. (Or you could put it out and waste it, but given how expensive cigarettes are I doubt many smokers are inclined to do that.) With vaping, you can take one drag and put it down. Figuring out the volume or amount of nicotine consumed would be very complicated. And, of course, most of the negative effects of smoking have nothing to do with nicotine and it seems if there are negative effects from vaping, those will likely also not come from the nicotine itself.

jdietrich 7y ago

I don't have time to thoroughly examine your references right now, but I can tell you off the bat that the third study is very poor - they measured vapor samples at 500°F and 600°F, which is substantially in excess of normal vaping temperatures and would almost certainly produce an acrid, foul-tasting vapor. The presence of CO in the vapor samples clearly indicates oxidation rather than vaporisation. Of course you get lots of nasty byproducts if you burn the liquid.

Reelin 7y ago
I think what's going on there is that one of the e-cigs they used had a configurable temperature (200-600 °F). I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they selected a reasonable one (they don't appear to specify in the methods). Separately, there's the GC-MS machine - oven (30 - 220 °C ramp) and inlet (320 °C). This shouldn't be (much of) an issue though, as an inert carrier gas is used. Plus you always have controls, so if the GC-MS itself is tearing things apart it should hopefully be obvious. That being said, I didn't see anything particularly concerning listed in their results (relative to recreational cigarette or alcohol consumption).
- teknopaul 7y ago
  Recreational cigarette smoking? I've never met such a creature. Your either hooked or your not.
  - otakucode 7y ago
    In the medical literature there is a classification referred to as a "chipper" who generally smokes only 1 or 2 cigarettes a week on average. Humans are many and varied.

Reelin 7y ago

> > The other is almost entirely a mixture of Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin. > What an extraordinary meaningless statement. Not at all. The point being made is that we're dealing with a product composed primarily (99%) of two chemicals that are very clearly established as safe for human consumption (propylene glycol is commonly _injected_). As such, it seems unreasonable to assume absent evidence that the chemicals themselves would pose any significant threat to health. That leaves other additives (which I noted) and the inhalation itself (which I also noted). As I stated in my previous comment, chronic inhalation of anything is likely to be bad for your health. You really seem to have missed the context of the question I was responding to - it asked not about absolute safety, but rather safety relative to cigarette consumption. Yes, as you note, there is always the potential for chemical reactions when mixtures are heated. Given the particular chemical composition and temperatures involved, I'm not personally concerned absent solid evidence. None of the byproducts listed in the study you linked appear particularly worrisome to me. Compared to cigarette, weed, or wood smoke, the contents of vaping such aerosols appears downright healthy. (Only in comparison, of course!) Rereading my previous comment, something I failed to mention is the risk of inhaling things that are too hot. Depending on what temperature the aerosol is heated to, it could burn you internally (but then we're comparing this to inhaling burning plant matter, so... meh). > I believe the current scientific consensus is that more research is needed. To establish what, their precise negative health effects? Of course. But not to establish that they are safer than smoking cigarettes - there's absolutely no question about that.

Retric 7y ago
Fog machines also use a glycol solution, and have been shown to be harmful. Thus vaping glycol may not be safe. https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports/pdfs/1990-0355-2449.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hhe/reports/pdfs/1990-0355-2449.pd...
- Reelin 7y ago
  The report you linked shows quite the opposite, actually. They concluded: > Based on the results of this study, there is no evidence that theatrical "smoke," at the levels found in the theaters studied, is a cause of occupational asthma among performers. That being said, chronic exposure is probably not good for you. From a health perspective, don't inhale anything other than air!

wastedhours 7y ago

>> The other is almost entirely a mixture of Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin. > What an extraordinary meaningless statement. >> ...except when it isn't Emphasis on "except when it isn't" which highlights the other impurities that might be there. I found the comment to be useful at highlighting what it was designed to highlight - that the safety depends entirely on what's inside the carts. You have no guarantees with some suppliers what the heck's actually inside, and I think saying "it's fairly simple at the base, but rather complicated in reality" is quite helpful for framing.