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UBI is a good idea in principle but a gateway to dystopia in practice. UBI and similar systems are an easily abused vector to create a new slave class. Relevan

UBI is a good idea in principle but a gateway to dystopia in practice. UBI and similar systems are an easily abused vector to create a new slave class. Relevant reading: Manna: Two Visions of Humanity's Future

petermcneeley 7y ago
Can you detail how giving stipend resources to everyone leads to a new slave class? Slavery is forced labor.
- eximius 7y ago
  I can see what their though process is. 1. All resources are distributed for labor in an open market. 2. All resources are held, some are distributed for labor in an open market, some are distributed for UBI. 3. All resources are held, there is little to no open market left, the rest is distributed via UBI. 4. UBI now require certain conditions to be claimed, such as participation in various labor programs, or, perhaps, whatever program you are assigned to. The open market has collapsed or is too small to offer a meaningful alternative to, effectively, economically enforced labor. Think of an economy like in Player Piano: only the engineers have jobs. The rest 'work' for their pay, but have no agency.
  - vincnetas 7y ago
    "UBI now require certain conditions to be claimed" No it does not. That the idea of universal basic income. Everyone gets it.
    - eximius 7y ago
      Sorry, I wasn't clear. Each stage is an evolution of policy. Once people rely on UBI and don't have easily accessible alternative options, those who control UBI can corrupt it to control those who depend on it. We have seen this happen, generally with good intentions, in Federal funding for roads and such. I'm not saying this course of events is inevitable, only that it is very possible to imagine. Particularly now, as many of our enshrined institutions are being corroded.
leetcrew 7y ago
> UBI is a good idea in principle but a gateway to dystopia in practice. seems like a strong claim about something that hasn't actually been tried at scale afaik.

petermcneeley 7y ago

Can you detail how giving stipend resources to everyone leads to a new slave class? Slavery is forced labor.

eximius 7y ago
I can see what their though process is. 1. All resources are distributed for labor in an open market. 2. All resources are held, some are distributed for labor in an open market, some are distributed for UBI. 3. All resources are held, there is little to no open market left, the rest is distributed via UBI. 4. UBI now require certain conditions to be claimed, such as participation in various labor programs, or, perhaps, whatever program you are assigned to. The open market has collapsed or is too small to offer a meaningful alternative to, effectively, economically enforced labor. Think of an economy like in Player Piano: only the engineers have jobs. The rest 'work' for their pay, but have no agency.
- vincnetas 7y ago
  "UBI now require certain conditions to be claimed" No it does not. That the idea of universal basic income. Everyone gets it.
  - eximius 7y ago
    Sorry, I wasn't clear. Each stage is an evolution of policy. Once people rely on UBI and don't have easily accessible alternative options, those who control UBI can corrupt it to control those who depend on it. We have seen this happen, generally with good intentions, in Federal funding for roads and such. I'm not saying this course of events is inevitable, only that it is very possible to imagine. Particularly now, as many of our enshrined institutions are being corroded.

leetcrew 7y ago

> UBI is a good idea in principle but a gateway to dystopia in practice. seems like a strong claim about something that hasn't actually been tried at scale afaik.