4 ms·

The Future of Farming? No Sun, No Soil, but Lots of Data

36 points by jelliclesfarm 7y ago

gus_massa 7y ago
The part they don't discuss in the article is the cost. Sunlight is free, but you must pay for the electricity if you use LEDs. Water is cheap where most farms are. So this can't be used to produce potatoes or corns or other plant with a very low price.
- bshipp 7y ago
  You're absolutely correct. There are very few situations where the benefit of only using artificial light outweighs the cost of ignoring free sunlight. Most hydroponics will transition with supplemental lighting, not exclusive LED lighting. EDIT:not only does sunlight provide energy for photosynthesis but it also provides free heat for the growing facility, and in many locations heat is not an insignificant expense. Even the choice of lighting (i.e. sodium vs LED) impacts the need for supplemental heating and/or cooling as traditional highouput bulbs are very hot, whereas LED is cool. In winter, that lack of heat must be augmented by supplementary sources. But, on the flip side, LEDs permit closer placement to the plants, offering additional lighting regime options and don't add to the temperature when the facility gets too hot.
  - jelliclesfarm 7y ago
    Lots of work going on with Quantum/Nano dots in greenhouse tech. Mostly with cannabis production because it’s the only crop that will justify the costs involved.
- kragen 7y ago
  I agree—even though solar electricity prices are falling fast, they aren't going to beat a greenhouse; I explored the question in more quantitative detail yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20905366 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20905366 Obviously the issue is most pressing for sun-loving crops like corn, but I think it applies even to leaf crops like lettuce.
  - jelliclesfarm 7y ago
    Not everything can be grown indoors. But most can be grown inside..covered cropping is a good compromise between row cropping and indoor hydroponics/vertical Ag. In fact, better returns and productivity than either of those ..capital costs are higher but easy to recover.
    - kragen 7y ago
      Are the obstacles to indoor growing just a matter of energy requirements, or is there something else I don't know about?
      - jelliclesfarm 7y ago
        Supply chain would be a big issue. Current system is optimized for field Ag and built in losses due to food wastage.
ajiang 7y ago
On a side note, indoor hydroponics is a super fun DIY project that combines tech and gardening. Having a decent amount of fun with it, whole yielding produce to cook every week.
- _iyig 7y ago
  What’s the best way to learn more about it? I’ve been poking around the hydroponics subreddit(s), but I don’t yet feel confident enough to invest in/start making any equipment.
  - donclark 7y ago
    Youtube has a lot of videos around this. One of the things that I think Ive read, but have not verified is that hydroponic plants dont have as much nutritional value as plants grown in soil.
thiccly 7y ago
The condescending attitude is troubling me "Rosenberg said that farmers usually apply fertilizer once, water the crop and hope it grows. AeroFarms, meanwhile, applies fertilizers many times, adjusting along the way to optimize plant growth" Not true. Most farmers I grew up around follow the recommended fertilization guidelines provided by their local coop, it's not a one time and "hope it grows" thing. “I’ve learned how ignorant we are about how to make plants grow.” Who is we? People who use "we" like this always use it to assume and judge things they feel. “A plant doesn’t necessarily need 10 hours of darkness,” said Rosenberg. “Maybe it needs 10 minutes.” Yes it does if the plant is photoperiodic. Many are. “When you can really play with those environmental factors and all these tools in a big data way in a farm the size of [a] building, it really becomes illuminating of how plants react in different ways.” Indoor and greenhouse growers have already been doing this forever. Welcome to the club.
- bshipp 7y ago
  After getting my masters in ag science and spending a decade working in hydroponics and field agriculture I am glad to see someone else identifying the hubris here. Multiple times a month I have to endure a pitch or presentation from some upstart tech company assuming that all farmers are toothless hicks who just need to be shown the light. I've had hundreds of conversations with growers about every single one of the topics he thinks he's going to fix. The only people swayed by his arguments are those who know even less than he does.
  - jelliclesfarm 7y ago
    I have had the same experience and I have given up trying to explain the nuances of Ag to technical engineering type of people. I do really think they solve problems differently and it’s not always compatible with Ag solutions
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - bshipp 7y ago
MrBuddyCasino 7y ago
That is some IYI shit right there. Gell-Mann, remember it. Plants have evolved over millions of years under sun/soil constraints, and I predict there will be 2nd order effects they‘ll soon become aware of. Not to speak of the fact that artificial light will never be cost competitive with the free thing.
- bshipp 7y ago
  There is some value in certain conditions for some of the items he has indicated. His most egregious error is thinking that no one is investigating or leveraging them. Generating specific taste profiles of fruits and vegetables based on inputs is fascinating and very real. What is being completely glossed over is the difficulty in creating a branded customer experience that permits any additional value to be extracted from the effort. For example, it's great you can make a tomato that has a unique taste, but most customers who purchase a tomato want it to taste like a traditional tomato, and those that don't really like the traditional taste of tomatoes aren't going to try it because they already dislike tomatoes.
noetic_techy 7y ago
It's my understanding that the biggest thing other than energy demands holding vertical farming back is the lack of ability to grow staple crops such as wheat, rice and soy. Sure you can grow plenty of low density high water plants, but you can't feed the planet let alone a city on crunchy water.
- jelliclesfarm 7y ago
  We can grow rice indoors. It’s from the grass family and we grow them in flooded irrigated plains anyways. 40% of all food crops is wasted somewhere along the supply chain. It’s a damn shame! I really hope our Ag and food systems change to reforest and rewind existing land for carbon sequestration as we take a much larger percent of food production indoors.

36 points by jelliclesfarm 7y ago

The part they don't discuss in the article is the cost. Sunlight is free, but you must pay for the electricity if you use LEDs. Water is cheap where most farms are. So this can't be used to produce potatoes or corns or other plant with a very low price.

bshipp 7y ago
You're absolutely correct. There are very few situations where the benefit of only using artificial light outweighs the cost of ignoring free sunlight. Most hydroponics will transition with supplemental lighting, not exclusive LED lighting. EDIT:not only does sunlight provide energy for photosynthesis but it also provides free heat for the growing facility, and in many locations heat is not an insignificant expense. Even the choice of lighting (i.e. sodium vs LED) impacts the need for supplemental heating and/or cooling as traditional highouput bulbs are very hot, whereas LED is cool. In winter, that lack of heat must be augmented by supplementary sources. But, on the flip side, LEDs permit closer placement to the plants, offering additional lighting regime options and don't add to the temperature when the facility gets too hot.
- jelliclesfarm 7y ago
  Lots of work going on with Quantum/Nano dots in greenhouse tech. Mostly with cannabis production because it’s the only crop that will justify the costs involved.
kragen 7y ago
I agree—even though solar electricity prices are falling fast, they aren't going to beat a greenhouse; I explored the question in more quantitative detail yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20905366 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20905366 Obviously the issue is most pressing for sun-loving crops like corn, but I think it applies even to leaf crops like lettuce.
- jelliclesfarm 7y ago
  Not everything can be grown indoors. But most can be grown inside..covered cropping is a good compromise between row cropping and indoor hydroponics/vertical Ag. In fact, better returns and productivity than either of those ..capital costs are higher but easy to recover.
  - kragen 7y ago
    Are the obstacles to indoor growing just a matter of energy requirements, or is there something else I don't know about?
    - jelliclesfarm 7y ago
      Supply chain would be a big issue. Current system is optimized for field Ag and built in losses due to food wastage.

ajiang 7y ago

On a side note, indoor hydroponics is a super fun DIY project that combines tech and gardening. Having a decent amount of fun with it, whole yielding produce to cook every week.

_iyig 7y ago
What’s the best way to learn more about it? I’ve been poking around the hydroponics subreddit(s), but I don’t yet feel confident enough to invest in/start making any equipment.
- donclark 7y ago
  Youtube has a lot of videos around this. One of the things that I think Ive read, but have not verified is that hydroponic plants dont have as much nutritional value as plants grown in soil.

thiccly 7y ago

The condescending attitude is troubling me "Rosenberg said that farmers usually apply fertilizer once, water the crop and hope it grows. AeroFarms, meanwhile, applies fertilizers many times, adjusting along the way to optimize plant growth" Not true. Most farmers I grew up around follow the recommended fertilization guidelines provided by their local coop, it's not a one time and "hope it grows" thing. “I’ve learned how ignorant we are about how to make plants grow.” Who is we? People who use "we" like this always use it to assume and judge things they feel. “A plant doesn’t necessarily need 10 hours of darkness,” said Rosenberg. “Maybe it needs 10 minutes.” Yes it does if the plant is photoperiodic. Many are. “When you can really play with those environmental factors and all these tools in a big data way in a farm the size of [a] building, it really becomes illuminating of how plants react in different ways.” Indoor and greenhouse growers have already been doing this forever. Welcome to the club.

bshipp 7y ago
After getting my masters in ag science and spending a decade working in hydroponics and field agriculture I am glad to see someone else identifying the hubris here. Multiple times a month I have to endure a pitch or presentation from some upstart tech company assuming that all farmers are toothless hicks who just need to be shown the light. I've had hundreds of conversations with growers about every single one of the topics he thinks he's going to fix. The only people swayed by his arguments are those who know even less than he does.
- jelliclesfarm 7y ago
  I have had the same experience and I have given up trying to explain the nuances of Ag to technical engineering type of people. I do really think they solve problems differently and it’s not always compatible with Ag solutions
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - bshipp 7y ago

MrBuddyCasino 7y ago

That is some IYI shit right there. Gell-Mann, remember it. Plants have evolved over millions of years under sun/soil constraints, and I predict there will be 2nd order effects they‘ll soon become aware of. Not to speak of the fact that artificial light will never be cost competitive with the free thing.

bshipp 7y ago
There is some value in certain conditions for some of the items he has indicated. His most egregious error is thinking that no one is investigating or leveraging them. Generating specific taste profiles of fruits and vegetables based on inputs is fascinating and very real. What is being completely glossed over is the difficulty in creating a branded customer experience that permits any additional value to be extracted from the effort. For example, it's great you can make a tomato that has a unique taste, but most customers who purchase a tomato want it to taste like a traditional tomato, and those that don't really like the traditional taste of tomatoes aren't going to try it because they already dislike tomatoes.

noetic_techy 7y ago

It's my understanding that the biggest thing other than energy demands holding vertical farming back is the lack of ability to grow staple crops such as wheat, rice and soy. Sure you can grow plenty of low density high water plants, but you can't feed the planet let alone a city on crunchy water.

jelliclesfarm 7y ago
We can grow rice indoors. It’s from the grass family and we grow them in flooded irrigated plains anyways. 40% of all food crops is wasted somewhere along the supply chain. It’s a damn shame! I really hope our Ag and food systems change to reforest and rewind existing land for carbon sequestration as we take a much larger percent of food production indoors.