4 ms·

I think you still don’t get what the previous poster was saying. If you (I don’t mean you personally, but the left generally) constantly call a group of people

I think you still don’t get what the previous poster was saying. If you (I don’t mean you personally, but the left generally) constantly call a group of people racist and engage in ridiculous histrionics about how they are the cause of all of the world’s problems, they aren’t going to listen to anything else you have to say. They’ll listen to anybody else who doesn’t say those things, even if that person is an obvious idiot and hypocrite. I don’t know that even a simple majority of people on the left really agree with the full “woke” progressive agenda, but you guys do a terrible job of condemning bad behavior directed at folks in “flyover country.”

geoka9 7y ago
> if you... call a group of people racist... they'll listen to anybody else who doesn't... Even if that person is racist?
- houseofrep 7y ago
  Yes. Lots of these people do not believe racism exists as a serious problem in America. They think it is fake, in no small part because they’ve been told for years that they benefit from and perpetuate an inherently racist system (i.e., that they themselves are racist.) It doesn’t square with their lived experience, so they write it off as “fake news.” They also discount claims of Trump being racist for the same reason. Concepts of privilege and structural racism require a lot of nuance to discuss. I won’t speculate as to how much nuance is intended in the way these ideas are delivered, but I can tell you as a lifelong resident of “flyover country” (who also has ties to the coasts,) the message is being received bluntly, without nuance, with a lot of skepticism and, frankly, anger. These are people who aren’t doing well and haven’t been for a long time. To them, it beggars belief to be told they benefit from and are orchestrating a massive racist conspiracy. Anyway, that’s my answer to OP’s question about what would resonate with this group of people. Stop calling them racists all the fucking time. It is not helping anyone. ( Unless your goal is to eventually start Civil War II. Then it’s on point.) If the left can demonstrate a little empathy, they might find their superior policy positions gain mindshare in the heartland.
  - geoka9 7y ago
    > They also discount claims of Trump being racist for the same reason. Thank you for your response, but honestly, can't they see for themselves? Why would they need to believe anybody's claims if they can just listen to what the guy says? Personally I suspect that most people do realize, but they choose to ignore it and that's hard to empathize with.
    - houseofrep 7y ago
      No, they don’t see it for themselves, for two primary reasons[1]. One, Trump’s statements are usually subject to interpretation (perhaps intentionally to dog whistle, perhaps inadvertently due to his almost child-like manner of speech.) When he talks about MS-13 members being animals, his supporters see him being tough on crime and criminals and don’t see his remarks as being reflective of an animus towards Central/South American migrants. His detractors hear the same statement and interpret it as evidence that Trump sees those same people as less than human. When he talks about “shit hole countries”, his supporters see him describing a place. His detractors see him describing people. I’m sure you can guess how media outlets friendly to the president (which his supporters tend to watch/read, to the exclusion of anything else) portray these statements. Second, claims of racism are thrown around...rather casually these days. You have to understand that not too long ago in the South, we dealt with assholes lynching black people. Just 20 years ago in Texas, James Byrd was brutally murdered (dragged to death behind a vehicle) by actual white supremacists. His attackers picked him at random and murdered him in the most brutal way imaginable for no reason other than Mr Byrd was black. That’s the sort of racism we’re unfortunately used to. These days, Banh Mi sandwiches of insufficient authenticity are racist, to hear some in the media tell it. It desensitizes people to any and all claims of racism. If 20 years ago, we had people being murdered in klan-style lynchings and today college kids cry racism over sandwiches (or Halloween costumes or pick your favorite stupid example from Reason Magazine or Campus Fix) then clearly this is a solved problem is sort of the logic. The issues I discussed in my earlier posts further exacerbate the problem. Finally, you said you suspect that most people do realize Trump is racist but they choose to ignore it. You have articulated no basis for this belief. The sort of thing is something I hear frequently from my liberal friends. They can’t imagine why anyone is against immigrants freely entering the country: the must be racist. They can’t imagine why anyone would oppose abortion: they must want to control women’s bodies. They can’t imagine why anyone would be opposed to gun control: they must not care about their fellow citizens being killed. My experience with conservatives from flyover country is they are nothing like the caricatures that are portrayed in the popular press. Their positions are earnestly held. Nothing makes them shut down to conversation faster than someone trying to paint them as being evil. If you want to change their mind about something, you might try taking their positions at face value. You’ll get a lot farther, at the very least in understanding what they really believe and why. [1] As far as I can tell, anyway. Hopefully this is obvious, but I’m trying to relate what I hear from my neighbors to an audience that might not normally have any interaction with people from my part of the country.

geoka9 7y ago

> if you... call a group of people racist... they'll listen to anybody else who doesn't... Even if that person is racist?

houseofrep 7y ago
Yes. Lots of these people do not believe racism exists as a serious problem in America. They think it is fake, in no small part because they’ve been told for years that they benefit from and perpetuate an inherently racist system (i.e., that they themselves are racist.) It doesn’t square with their lived experience, so they write it off as “fake news.” They also discount claims of Trump being racist for the same reason. Concepts of privilege and structural racism require a lot of nuance to discuss. I won’t speculate as to how much nuance is intended in the way these ideas are delivered, but I can tell you as a lifelong resident of “flyover country” (who also has ties to the coasts,) the message is being received bluntly, without nuance, with a lot of skepticism and, frankly, anger. These are people who aren’t doing well and haven’t been for a long time. To them, it beggars belief to be told they benefit from and are orchestrating a massive racist conspiracy. Anyway, that’s my answer to OP’s question about what would resonate with this group of people. Stop calling them racists all the fucking time. It is not helping anyone. ( Unless your goal is to eventually start Civil War II. Then it’s on point.) If the left can demonstrate a little empathy, they might find their superior policy positions gain mindshare in the heartland.
- geoka9 7y ago
  > They also discount claims of Trump being racist for the same reason. Thank you for your response, but honestly, can't they see for themselves? Why would they need to believe anybody's claims if they can just listen to what the guy says? Personally I suspect that most people do realize, but they choose to ignore it and that's hard to empathize with.
  - houseofrep 7y ago
    No, they don’t see it for themselves, for two primary reasons[1]. One, Trump’s statements are usually subject to interpretation (perhaps intentionally to dog whistle, perhaps inadvertently due to his almost child-like manner of speech.) When he talks about MS-13 members being animals, his supporters see him being tough on crime and criminals and don’t see his remarks as being reflective of an animus towards Central/South American migrants. His detractors hear the same statement and interpret it as evidence that Trump sees those same people as less than human. When he talks about “shit hole countries”, his supporters see him describing a place. His detractors see him describing people. I’m sure you can guess how media outlets friendly to the president (which his supporters tend to watch/read, to the exclusion of anything else) portray these statements. Second, claims of racism are thrown around...rather casually these days. You have to understand that not too long ago in the South, we dealt with assholes lynching black people. Just 20 years ago in Texas, James Byrd was brutally murdered (dragged to death behind a vehicle) by actual white supremacists. His attackers picked him at random and murdered him in the most brutal way imaginable for no reason other than Mr Byrd was black. That’s the sort of racism we’re unfortunately used to. These days, Banh Mi sandwiches of insufficient authenticity are racist, to hear some in the media tell it. It desensitizes people to any and all claims of racism. If 20 years ago, we had people being murdered in klan-style lynchings and today college kids cry racism over sandwiches (or Halloween costumes or pick your favorite stupid example from Reason Magazine or Campus Fix) then clearly this is a solved problem is sort of the logic. The issues I discussed in my earlier posts further exacerbate the problem. Finally, you said you suspect that most people do realize Trump is racist but they choose to ignore it. You have articulated no basis for this belief. The sort of thing is something I hear frequently from my liberal friends. They can’t imagine why anyone is against immigrants freely entering the country: the must be racist. They can’t imagine why anyone would oppose abortion: they must want to control women’s bodies. They can’t imagine why anyone would be opposed to gun control: they must not care about their fellow citizens being killed. My experience with conservatives from flyover country is they are nothing like the caricatures that are portrayed in the popular press. Their positions are earnestly held. Nothing makes them shut down to conversation faster than someone trying to paint them as being evil. If you want to change their mind about something, you might try taking their positions at face value. You’ll get a lot farther, at the very least in understanding what they really believe and why. [1] As far as I can tell, anyway. Hopefully this is obvious, but I’m trying to relate what I hear from my neighbors to an audience that might not normally have any interaction with people from my part of the country.