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Can you expand on a few of your comments. I have an older Leaf in Japan and I've never seen a Model 3 before, so I'm curious about the difference. - "the driv

Can you expand on a few of your comments. I have an older Leaf in Japan and I've never seen a Model 3 before, so I'm curious about the difference. - "the driving experience is in a different league". In what way? I was surprised at how much I enjoy driving the leaf (except for very poor turning radius, which I can't quite understand). What's better in the Model 3? - "doesn't require fifteen minutes of fiddling every time". What does that mean? I don't have trouble charging my Leaf. Is that something specific about the supercharger network (which isn't in Japan), or are you referring to something else?

eganist 7y ago
Not the parent comment, but having driven the model S, X, and 3 (and decided against buying for reasons completely unrelated to the cars themselves), I can probably offer the following insight: The center of gravity for a tesla, regardless of model, is absurdly low. The end result of this is that driving one feels like the car's running on rails, even with the tightest turns. Couple that with the use of electric motors with instant torque (providing likely north of 750 hp/torque with the model S), you've got a car which gives you options. You can race it around and drive like a jerk, sure. But even as a civilized driver, the capability to do almost anything with the car is an enabling factor. --- Don't get me wrong; you can get this from a few other electric cars (the Jag i-Pace comes to mind). But that's probably the advantage the Model 3 has over others; it can maintain the driving dynamics/experience against competition a few Toyota Camrys more expensive.
pi-rat 7y ago
Not OP, but.. The superchargers just work. Arrive, plug in, it's charging. Other fast chargers are often much more cumbersome, requiring you to installing an app, registering an RFID tag, adding your credit card, etc. I've 6 different apps installed on my phone for different charging networks here in Norway, and 2-3 RFID tags in my car. Many of them are also unstable, or have terrible UX and weird quirks. If you need to make a seven minute video[1] to explain how to use it, you're doing it wrong.. It's getting better though, software is improving, growing pains handled. A future CCS revision (the most used charge plug in Europe) will include "plug&charge" with payment handled by the car - making it more super charger like. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLe5jvx0NkI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLe5jvx0NkI
- mikekchar 7y ago
  Really interesting. In Japan, the navigation unit on the Leaf has all of the charging stations built in. Then you plug it in and put your charging card on the proximity sensor (well, you have to push a button 3 times as well). But that's it. I think that's probably the advantage of owning the charging infrastructure. I'm very much wondering how the landscape will change once Toyota enters the fray (which I think it later this year if I'm not mistaken).
marvin 7y ago
Keep in mind that I don't own any of these cars (or any car). I am not a car guy. I have spent many hours in first-generation Leafs and a couple in Leaf 2 & Model 3, mostly through my local micro-rental service. You really should try this out for yourself :) Not being a car guy, it's hard to explain, sort of like the difference between Android and iOS, or even more uncannily, between iPhone 7 and iPhone X, which shouldn't feel so different but do. It's like there's many small details that are below the threshold of perception which come together to make it an overall pleasurable experience. The Leaf is fun to drive. The Leaf 2 is also fun, both feel like completely ordinary cars. Perfectly good driving experience. Preferable to gasoline cars, I would say. But the Tesla 3 is even more fun to drive, and feels like a more luxurious and relaxed experience, with many annoyances that you didn't know you cared about, removed. Just to list some that are obvious: Nissan are terrible at software and UX. The screen reacts slowly, with low FPS, does counterintuitive things and is confusing. The gear indicator light cannot be read in direct sunlight. The motor makes a high-frequency sound when accelerating, even from a standstill. The charge lid must be closed manually if you open it by mistake. The instrument panel is cluttered and unintentionally visually stressful, in the way almost all cars' are. Handling is subtly less pleasant in all conditions. Acceleration is not as powerful, and somehow feels less controlled and more jerky, even at low speeds. Contrasting with the Tesla: Regenerative breaking when letting up the gas feels more subtle. Suspension feels less wobbly. The accelerator doesn't cause a jerking feeling unless you want it to. Can get you up to the required speed faster than you'll know how to make use of, unless you've deliberately practiced that kind of performance driving. The screen software is more intuitive. Has high FPS, reacts instantly. Visually much more peaceful, minimalistic, beautiful. Ditto for the interior design. Speed indicator manages to be at the exact correct spot in your field of view, somehow encouraging you to look out the front window more and keep attention on the road. The panoramic glass roof is just so peaceful if you stop somewhere to enjoy the scenery. There's stuff to be annoyed at with the Tesla too, there's room for improvement many places. The collision avoidance warnings in particular felt too loose to me, and the sometimes-inconsistent placement and interpretation of the traffic around you on the display doesn't inspire confidence wrt. self-driving. (Although, the fact that it's there at all is pretty cool though, it's fascinating to see the streaming output of a neural network vision system in a real product. It's obvious that Tesla is building this system from real-world usage data and the progress will be fascinating to follow). Overall, it's a much more pleasant experience, IMHO. I recommend you get a couple of hours to test-drive and see if you agree, or if I'm just caught up with a weird case of the fanboyism. pi-rat explained my comments about charging while on the road better than I could. The key point is terrible and inconsistent user experience among other vendors. And I've seen examples of people plain being unable to charge at the single charger that's available. Not a fun thing to worry about when 40 miles from home at low battery.
bitexploder 7y ago
I own a Model 3 Performance. I have owned a lot of muscle cars and legitimate sports cars that cost a lot more than the Model 3 over the years. I could have comfortably bought a Model S with the best performance package (costing twice as much and going a bit faster than M3 Performance), but I picked the Model 3. It is hands down the best performance car I have ever owned for day to day driving. There is little difference between my Model 3 and the base level ones in terms of drive feel. They are amazing cars for day to day driving scenarios. When a car is just more fun to drive than high end Porsche or tricked out muscle cars it’s just a good car. Model 3 has its warts, but they don’t really impact the driving experience IMO.

eganist 7y ago

Not the parent comment, but having driven the model S, X, and 3 (and decided against buying for reasons completely unrelated to the cars themselves), I can probably offer the following insight: The center of gravity for a tesla, regardless of model, is absurdly low. The end result of this is that driving one feels like the car's running on rails, even with the tightest turns. Couple that with the use of electric motors with instant torque (providing likely north of 750 hp/torque with the model S), you've got a car which gives you options. You can race it around and drive like a jerk, sure. But even as a civilized driver, the capability to do almost anything with the car is an enabling factor. --- Don't get me wrong; you can get this from a few other electric cars (the Jag i-Pace comes to mind). But that's probably the advantage the Model 3 has over others; it can maintain the driving dynamics/experience against competition a few Toyota Camrys more expensive.

pi-rat 7y ago

Not OP, but.. The superchargers just work. Arrive, plug in, it's charging. Other fast chargers are often much more cumbersome, requiring you to installing an app, registering an RFID tag, adding your credit card, etc. I've 6 different apps installed on my phone for different charging networks here in Norway, and 2-3 RFID tags in my car. Many of them are also unstable, or have terrible UX and weird quirks. If you need to make a seven minute video[1] to explain how to use it, you're doing it wrong.. It's getting better though, software is improving, growing pains handled. A future CCS revision (the most used charge plug in Europe) will include "plug&charge" with payment handled by the car - making it more super charger like. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLe5jvx0NkI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLe5jvx0NkI

mikekchar 7y ago
Really interesting. In Japan, the navigation unit on the Leaf has all of the charging stations built in. Then you plug it in and put your charging card on the proximity sensor (well, you have to push a button 3 times as well). But that's it. I think that's probably the advantage of owning the charging infrastructure. I'm very much wondering how the landscape will change once Toyota enters the fray (which I think it later this year if I'm not mistaken).

marvin 7y ago

Keep in mind that I don't own any of these cars (or any car). I am not a car guy. I have spent many hours in first-generation Leafs and a couple in Leaf 2 & Model 3, mostly through my local micro-rental service. You really should try this out for yourself :) Not being a car guy, it's hard to explain, sort of like the difference between Android and iOS, or even more uncannily, between iPhone 7 and iPhone X, which shouldn't feel so different but do. It's like there's many small details that are below the threshold of perception which come together to make it an overall pleasurable experience. The Leaf is fun to drive. The Leaf 2 is also fun, both feel like completely ordinary cars. Perfectly good driving experience. Preferable to gasoline cars, I would say. But the Tesla 3 is even more fun to drive, and feels like a more luxurious and relaxed experience, with many annoyances that you didn't know you cared about, removed. Just to list some that are obvious: Nissan are terrible at software and UX. The screen reacts slowly, with low FPS, does counterintuitive things and is confusing. The gear indicator light cannot be read in direct sunlight. The motor makes a high-frequency sound when accelerating, even from a standstill. The charge lid must be closed manually if you open it by mistake. The instrument panel is cluttered and unintentionally visually stressful, in the way almost all cars' are. Handling is subtly less pleasant in all conditions. Acceleration is not as powerful, and somehow feels less controlled and more jerky, even at low speeds. Contrasting with the Tesla: Regenerative breaking when letting up the gas feels more subtle. Suspension feels less wobbly. The accelerator doesn't cause a jerking feeling unless you want it to. Can get you up to the required speed faster than you'll know how to make use of, unless you've deliberately practiced that kind of performance driving. The screen software is more intuitive. Has high FPS, reacts instantly. Visually much more peaceful, minimalistic, beautiful. Ditto for the interior design. Speed indicator manages to be at the exact correct spot in your field of view, somehow encouraging you to look out the front window more and keep attention on the road. The panoramic glass roof is just so peaceful if you stop somewhere to enjoy the scenery. There's stuff to be annoyed at with the Tesla too, there's room for improvement many places. The collision avoidance warnings in particular felt too loose to me, and the sometimes-inconsistent placement and interpretation of the traffic around you on the display doesn't inspire confidence wrt. self-driving. (Although, the fact that it's there at all is pretty cool though, it's fascinating to see the streaming output of a neural network vision system in a real product. It's obvious that Tesla is building this system from real-world usage data and the progress will be fascinating to follow). Overall, it's a much more pleasant experience, IMHO. I recommend you get a couple of hours to test-drive and see if you agree, or if I'm just caught up with a weird case of the fanboyism. pi-rat explained my comments about charging while on the road better than I could. The key point is terrible and inconsistent user experience among other vendors. And I've seen examples of people plain being unable to charge at the single charger that's available. Not a fun thing to worry about when 40 miles from home at low battery.

bitexploder 7y ago

I own a Model 3 Performance. I have owned a lot of muscle cars and legitimate sports cars that cost a lot more than the Model 3 over the years. I could have comfortably bought a Model S with the best performance package (costing twice as much and going a bit faster than M3 Performance), but I picked the Model 3. It is hands down the best performance car I have ever owned for day to day driving. There is little difference between my Model 3 and the base level ones in terms of drive feel. They are amazing cars for day to day driving scenarios. When a car is just more fun to drive than high end Porsche or tricked out muscle cars it’s just a good car. Model 3 has its warts, but they don’t really impact the driving experience IMO.