10 ms·

Trying to Convince People to Change (2016)

98 points by luu 7y ago

breadandcrumbel 7y ago
My grandpa used to say "No matter how much a snake sheds skin. It's still a snake"
- jsjolen 7y ago
  Now that's what I call applying a growth mindset to things. /s
- southerndrift 7y ago
  But humans are not snakes. But behavior is not a skin, but the core, unless it is an act.
  - dredmorbius 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor
    - southerndrift 7y ago
      I know. Unfortunately, that metaphor is throwing the baby out with the bath water.
- GuB-42 7y ago
  My though entirely. People grow but fundamentally, they don't change. For instance, someone who is lazy won't become hard working. He can however, grow up by becoming more efficient and doing more with less work. Someone judgmental won't become tolerant, but his judgment will become more and more valuable. IMHO, trying to change people is a lost cause. Take them for what they are and take advantage of their personality traits or let them go. And don't forget that diversity is not just about race and gender.
- Arubis 7y ago
  There is a beautiful and deep irony in that sibling comments here all read as closed to the possibility that their view on people's ability to change--whatever it may be--might be wrong.
mruts 7y ago
If someone had given her a book and askes her to read it and “change” would she? People always don’t understand why someone else can change while at the same time feeling frustrated at their own ability to change. Turns out change is hard and handing someone a book and calling it a say doesn’t really cut it. Moreover, there’s probably a lot of things employees want to change about their boss and yet, they never hand him a book. This leads to bosses thinking the problems are never them.
quickthrower2 7y ago
This is a good piece. Basically it is saying people aren't dumb. That person you are trying to get to read the agile manifesto isn't not reading it because they are lazy, stupid or arrogant. They've been around the block and know they don't need it. Also not everyone wants to be the top player, and apply a "growth mindset" and "can do attitude" to everything. They just want to be paid to code without unnecessary invented hassles. Let them.
- speedplane 7y ago
  > This is a good piece. ... That person you are trying to get to read the agile manifesto isn't not reading it because they are lazy, stupid or arrogant. They've been around the block and know they don't need it. Being "around the block" is no excuse for not keeping up to date in your profession. True, software development has faster hype cycles than other professions such as medical or legal professions. However, just as experienced doctors need to keep up to date with standards of care, software developers also need to keep up with best practices. The larger takeaway from this piece is that you don't need to read full books to understand latest developments. A developer that knows 10 programming languages does not need to read a 500 page book to learn their 11th language. But they should read one or two articles, and try a tutorial to get what they need from it. Software development is a profession, and like every profession it's subject to constant change. Keeping your head down and ignoring new developments is simply malpractice.
  - flohofwoe 7y ago
    > Being "around the block" is no excuse for not keeping up to date in your profession. I think the key phrase in the parents comment is "agile manifesto". If you've "been around the block" you can detect bullshit earlier, and know what new developments are worth looking at and which to ignore right from the start. And to be honest, software development is full of irrational bullshit, both in big organizations, as well as "hipster startups". That's not a new thing, it's always been like that, most of the bullshit dies very quickly, but some sticks around for decades and does massive damage. One of the most important skills of a senior dev is a well developed bullshit detector (while not becoming a cynic).
spodek 7y ago
I've learned to interpret the word convince to mean provoke debate. Influence, persuasion, and other forms of leadership rarely benefit from convincing.
soniman 7y ago
A good joke to make the same point: How many psychologists does it take to change a lightbulb? Just one, but only if the lightbulb is willing to change.
bensonn 7y ago
Do managers give books as a work assignments and provide time/place to read the book. If you want an employee to "change the way they react to stress" giving them 8 hours of voluntary (but not really) homework probably doesn't help. If you want them to read it make it a required task and provide them work time, otherwise management/company is expecting the employee to give up personal/family time to read the book off the clock.
- forgotmypw3 7y ago
  My thoughts exactly. Put 7 hours of book-reading as my schedule for the day, and I'll be happy to.
- rhacker 7y ago
  That's excellent advice too. It should apply to other things like youtube videos that are educational too.
- sandworm101 7y ago
  I get this at my work. We get constant lectures about stress, sleep, healthy eating and such. Every one feels like the bosses trying to tell us how to spend our weekends. The last slide always has a series of references that we are expected to read on our own time. My favorite is the lecture about sleep dept, about how two good nights sleep can reverse several days of sleep deprivation. Great. Work me 18-hours a day all week and leave it up to me to resolve it on the weekend. How convenient for the employer.
- bigred100 7y ago
  I assigned my last manager a book to improve his communication skills and he just got mad at me.
- ken 7y ago
  In the USA, at least, they aren't required to provide a time/place, but they would be required to compensate you for it, by the Fair Labor Standards Act [1]. It sounds exactly like "Lectures, Meetings and Training Programs", which means it qualifies as "working time". It's on the clock. [1]: https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs22.pdf https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs22.pdf Schedule a workday to spend reading the book, or bill the company for taking up half your weekend. If this worker is in a union, this is precisely the sort of issue to take up with the steward. Most programmers aren't, but apparently non-union workers already have an "an open and direct dialogue" with their managers, though it's kind of hard to tell if that's the case here since the manager is the one who can't seem to schedule one simple task for the employee.
draw_down 7y ago
It is not us who need to change, it is the employee. We shouldn’t stop stressing you out, you should stop reacting poorly when we do.
lerie 7y ago
trying to change people is one of the problems with society in general. people can only change themselves. if you think you changed somebody, you didn't, they changed themselves. stop trying to change people.
squarefoot 7y ago
I had some troubles ages ago and one of my bosses hinted me to read the Siddharta by Herman Hesse. Today I wouldn't remember a single word about the book, but back then I liked it a lot although I experienced it from an atheist point of view. Did it solve my problems? Not at all since most of them were caused by a PM in the same company whose assholery was right on par with his utter technical incompetence, but the suggestion by that boss may have helped afterwards; who knows...
carapace 7y ago
With the best kind of leaders / when the work is finished / the people all say / "we did it ourselves." ~Tao Te Ching
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
alexashka 7y ago
Imagine a software engineer giving his/her manager 'Learn python in 30 days' so that he/she isn't clueless in her 'agile meetings' when interacting with software developers. How many managers would be willing to go through the book and do the exercises? I don't know, not many :)
baked_ziti 7y ago
Is this appropriate behavior for managers? It seems not to me, but my experience is limited. It seems to me that "convincing someone to change" is inappropriate in just about, if not every, context and that being a manager doesn't make it more appropriate, it just makes the appropriate feedback (negative response, criticism) impossible. If I found myself in this situation with a manager, I would ignore them to the degree possible and failing that, avoid them entirely, whatever that meant. Outside of a managerial context, I would just say something rude.
seer 7y ago
I’v noticed this pattern with people in way more situations than just team member - manager. Spouses, friends, colleagues etc are prone to just “suggest reading a book” to solve an inter-personal problem. And I’ve never seen this work in the slightest. Just anecdotal info I know, but I do think its a general pattern. If someone is disagreeing, and you ask them to “read a book to change their mind” you basically ask them to admit they are not right and that you have power over them. Two things that people don’t like in general. And its pretty sad, because we are here in this civilization of ours mainly because of books. Ideas that survive generations and mold societies. And reading what someone else is really into is actually quite beneficial. I personally try to at least skim through suggestions given from others, as its such an awesome tool to understand where someone is coming from. And would give you _much_ better leverage in any further interactions. Even if its the fact that you’ve taken someone at their word to actually read something, you gain a “favor” in negotiating terms. And you would also know the language that the other person is thinking in. Developers are very prone to “if everything else fails read the instructions” kind of thinking, and book suggestions are basically instructions for people. And I think the advice of being better off if you just try to read that works in both cases, even if it goes against our natures.
kunkelast 7y ago
You don't change people. You change the rules and they either adapt or find a better place with better and more suitable rulles. This is what freedom is about, and a good management. I like this blog post about this problem: https://www.yegor256.com/2018/10/09/can-you-control-us.html https://www.yegor256.com/2018/10/09/can-you-control-us.html

98 points by luu 7y ago

breadandcrumbel 7y ago

My grandpa used to say "No matter how much a snake sheds skin. It's still a snake"

jsjolen 7y ago
Now that's what I call applying a growth mindset to things. /s
southerndrift 7y ago
But humans are not snakes. But behavior is not a skin, but the core, unless it is an act.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphor
  - southerndrift 7y ago
    I know. Unfortunately, that metaphor is throwing the baby out with the bath water.
GuB-42 7y ago
My though entirely. People grow but fundamentally, they don't change. For instance, someone who is lazy won't become hard working. He can however, grow up by becoming more efficient and doing more with less work. Someone judgmental won't become tolerant, but his judgment will become more and more valuable. IMHO, trying to change people is a lost cause. Take them for what they are and take advantage of their personality traits or let them go. And don't forget that diversity is not just about race and gender.
Arubis 7y ago
There is a beautiful and deep irony in that sibling comments here all read as closed to the possibility that their view on people's ability to change--whatever it may be--might be wrong.

mruts 7y ago

If someone had given her a book and askes her to read it and “change” would she? People always don’t understand why someone else can change while at the same time feeling frustrated at their own ability to change. Turns out change is hard and handing someone a book and calling it a say doesn’t really cut it. Moreover, there’s probably a lot of things employees want to change about their boss and yet, they never hand him a book. This leads to bosses thinking the problems are never them.

quickthrower2 7y ago

This is a good piece. Basically it is saying people aren't dumb. That person you are trying to get to read the agile manifesto isn't not reading it because they are lazy, stupid or arrogant. They've been around the block and know they don't need it. Also not everyone wants to be the top player, and apply a "growth mindset" and "can do attitude" to everything. They just want to be paid to code without unnecessary invented hassles. Let them.

speedplane 7y ago
> This is a good piece. ... That person you are trying to get to read the agile manifesto isn't not reading it because they are lazy, stupid or arrogant. They've been around the block and know they don't need it. Being "around the block" is no excuse for not keeping up to date in your profession. True, software development has faster hype cycles than other professions such as medical or legal professions. However, just as experienced doctors need to keep up to date with standards of care, software developers also need to keep up with best practices. The larger takeaway from this piece is that you don't need to read full books to understand latest developments. A developer that knows 10 programming languages does not need to read a 500 page book to learn their 11th language. But they should read one or two articles, and try a tutorial to get what they need from it. Software development is a profession, and like every profession it's subject to constant change. Keeping your head down and ignoring new developments is simply malpractice.
- flohofwoe 7y ago
  > Being "around the block" is no excuse for not keeping up to date in your profession. I think the key phrase in the parents comment is "agile manifesto". If you've "been around the block" you can detect bullshit earlier, and know what new developments are worth looking at and which to ignore right from the start. And to be honest, software development is full of irrational bullshit, both in big organizations, as well as "hipster startups". That's not a new thing, it's always been like that, most of the bullshit dies very quickly, but some sticks around for decades and does massive damage. One of the most important skills of a senior dev is a well developed bullshit detector (while not becoming a cynic).

spodek 7y ago

I've learned to interpret the word convince to mean provoke debate. Influence, persuasion, and other forms of leadership rarely benefit from convincing.

soniman 7y ago

A good joke to make the same point: How many psychologists does it take to change a lightbulb? Just one, but only if the lightbulb is willing to change.

bensonn 7y ago

Do managers give books as a work assignments and provide time/place to read the book. If you want an employee to "change the way they react to stress" giving them 8 hours of voluntary (but not really) homework probably doesn't help. If you want them to read it make it a required task and provide them work time, otherwise management/company is expecting the employee to give up personal/family time to read the book off the clock.

forgotmypw3 7y ago
My thoughts exactly. Put 7 hours of book-reading as my schedule for the day, and I'll be happy to.
rhacker 7y ago
That's excellent advice too. It should apply to other things like youtube videos that are educational too.
sandworm101 7y ago
I get this at my work. We get constant lectures about stress, sleep, healthy eating and such. Every one feels like the bosses trying to tell us how to spend our weekends. The last slide always has a series of references that we are expected to read on our own time. My favorite is the lecture about sleep dept, about how two good nights sleep can reverse several days of sleep deprivation. Great. Work me 18-hours a day all week and leave it up to me to resolve it on the weekend. How convenient for the employer.
bigred100 7y ago
I assigned my last manager a book to improve his communication skills and he just got mad at me.
ken 7y ago
In the USA, at least, they aren't required to provide a time/place, but they would be required to compensate you for it, by the Fair Labor Standards Act [1]. It sounds exactly like "Lectures, Meetings and Training Programs", which means it qualifies as "working time". It's on the clock. [1]: https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs22.pdf https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs22.pdf Schedule a workday to spend reading the book, or bill the company for taking up half your weekend. If this worker is in a union, this is precisely the sort of issue to take up with the steward. Most programmers aren't, but apparently non-union workers already have an "an open and direct dialogue" with their managers, though it's kind of hard to tell if that's the case here since the manager is the one who can't seem to schedule one simple task for the employee.

draw_down 7y ago

It is not us who need to change, it is the employee. We shouldn’t stop stressing you out, you should stop reacting poorly when we do.

lerie 7y ago

trying to change people is one of the problems with society in general. people can only change themselves. if you think you changed somebody, you didn't, they changed themselves. stop trying to change people.

squarefoot 7y ago

I had some troubles ages ago and one of my bosses hinted me to read the Siddharta by Herman Hesse. Today I wouldn't remember a single word about the book, but back then I liked it a lot although I experienced it from an atheist point of view. Did it solve my problems? Not at all since most of them were caused by a PM in the same company whose assholery was right on par with his utter technical incompetence, but the suggestion by that boss may have helped afterwards; who knows...

carapace 7y ago

With the best kind of leaders / when the work is finished / the people all say / "we did it ourselves." ~Tao Te Ching

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

alexashka 7y ago

Imagine a software engineer giving his/her manager 'Learn python in 30 days' so that he/she isn't clueless in her 'agile meetings' when interacting with software developers. How many managers would be willing to go through the book and do the exercises? I don't know, not many :)

baked_ziti 7y ago

Is this appropriate behavior for managers? It seems not to me, but my experience is limited. It seems to me that "convincing someone to change" is inappropriate in just about, if not every, context and that being a manager doesn't make it more appropriate, it just makes the appropriate feedback (negative response, criticism) impossible. If I found myself in this situation with a manager, I would ignore them to the degree possible and failing that, avoid them entirely, whatever that meant. Outside of a managerial context, I would just say something rude.

seer 7y ago

I’v noticed this pattern with people in way more situations than just team member - manager. Spouses, friends, colleagues etc are prone to just “suggest reading a book” to solve an inter-personal problem. And I’ve never seen this work in the slightest. Just anecdotal info I know, but I do think its a general pattern. If someone is disagreeing, and you ask them to “read a book to change their mind” you basically ask them to admit they are not right and that you have power over them. Two things that people don’t like in general. And its pretty sad, because we are here in this civilization of ours mainly because of books. Ideas that survive generations and mold societies. And reading what someone else is really into is actually quite beneficial. I personally try to at least skim through suggestions given from others, as its such an awesome tool to understand where someone is coming from. And would give you _much_ better leverage in any further interactions. Even if its the fact that you’ve taken someone at their word to actually read something, you gain a “favor” in negotiating terms. And you would also know the language that the other person is thinking in. Developers are very prone to “if everything else fails read the instructions” kind of thinking, and book suggestions are basically instructions for people. And I think the advice of being better off if you just try to read that works in both cases, even if it goes against our natures.

kunkelast 7y ago

You don't change people. You change the rules and they either adapt or find a better place with better and more suitable rulles. This is what freedom is about, and a good management. I like this blog post about this problem: https://www.yegor256.com/2018/10/09/can-you-control-us.html https://www.yegor256.com/2018/10/09/can-you-control-us.html