4 ms·

Doubt? Care to elaborate and substantiate?

by DSingularity 7y ago

tptacek 7y ago
How about we not, since it has nothing to do with this thread?
- wolco 7y ago
  It has a lot to do with the timing of this thread. If he left a year ago I would agree but questions around his death put this story in the spotlight.
- tomp 7y ago
  Your unhelpful reply makes just as much noise as a helpful reply answering the question by ALittleLight
xtian 7y ago
Care to elaborate and substantiate your certainty? Doubt is the default stance of the rational and inquisitive mind.
ALittleLight 7y ago
Epstein was connected to many high profile, wealthy, and politically connected people. If he went to trial, his connections to these people may be exposed, and they may face legal liability. There are a number of suspicious circumstances regarding Epstein's alleged suicide. In no particular order: * Multiple bones in Epstein's neck were broken. This is possible in a suicide, but broken bones are more consistent with a homicide. [1] * Multiple video cameras malfunctioned outside Epstein's cell coincident with his death. [2] * Epstein's guards, who were supposed to be regularly checking on him did not. They were "asleep" before, during, and after Epstein's death. They later falsified records about this fact. [3] * The explanation for the failed video cameras and the sleeping guards is that the MCC is under staffed. Yet, that's at odds with the fact that there was only one other suicide in the past 40 years at the MCC [4]. I try to think about how I would regard Epstein's death if it happened in a history book, in a foreign country. "There was a guy who had material implicating numerous powerful figures. While he was being held in prison, recently released from suicide watch, isolated from his former cell mate in a cell by himself, cameras failed, his guards stopped checking on him, he became the first suicide in more than a couple decades by hanging himself by kneeling so forcefully against his bed sheet [5] that he broke multiple bones in his neck." I don't think, if I were reading about this at a distance, that I would have any real doubts about considering Epstein murdered. The idea that Epstein's suicide is as simple as alleged strikes me as preposterous. 1. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/autopsy-finds-broken-bones-in-jeffrey-epsteins-neck-deepening-questions-around-his-death/2019/08/14/d09ac934-bdd9-11e9-b873-63ace636af08_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/autopsy-finds-broken... 2. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-people-jeffrey-epstein-cameras/fbi-studies-two-broken-cameras-outside-cell-where-epstein-died-source-idUSKCN1VI2LC https://www.reuters.com/article/us-people-jeffrey-epstein-ca... 3. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/13/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-jail-officers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/13/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-... 4. https://www.foxnews.com/us/epstein-new-york-lockup-suicides https://www.foxnews.com/us/epstein-new-york-lockup-suicides 5. https://www.foxnews.com/us/jeffrey-epstein-used-bedsheet-to-make-noose-report https://www.foxnews.com/us/jeffrey-epstein-used-bedsheet-to-...
- tomp 7y ago
  thanks for this extensively sourced summary!
- DanBC 7y ago
  > This is possible in a suicide You don't know much about ligaturing, do you? > Epstein's guards, who were supposed to be regularly checking on him did not. They were "asleep" before, during, and after Epstein's death. They later falsified records about this fact. This is worryingly common in prison and mental health hospitals. > Yet, that's at odds with the fact that there was only one other suicide in the past 40 years at the MCC [4]. Do you know what they're counting and how they count it? How do they define "suicide" and "at the MCC"?
  - ALittleLight 7y ago
    I'm not an expert in ligaturing. Everything I've read though backs up what I wrote above, that it is possible that bones in the neck are broken in suicide by hanging, but more likely that they are broken by homicidal strangulation. This news source [1] goes over multiple academic papers that attempt to measure the likelihood of neck bone fractures in suicide versus homicide victims. On my own, I've searched and found multiple additional academic papers that, while disagreeing on the exact probabilities, all support the general conclusion that neck bone fractures are possible in a suicide but more likely in a homicide. The implication of your comment is that, unlike me, you do know much about ligaturing, so I'd be interested in getting your expert opinion. Are neck bone fractures equally likely in suicidal hanging and homicidal strangulation? You also write that the guards falling asleep is "worryingly common". I'm sure that's true - but what worries me most about this case is the confluence of multiple unlikely circumstances. Unfortunately the guards fell asleep, unluckily the video cameras failed, against the odds multiple bones in his neck broke while he knelt against his bed sheet, and, surprisingly, Epstein was the first suicide in 21 years at the facility. Regarding your question about definitions - my understanding is that "suicide" is meant as a person killing themselves, and "at the MCC" means an MCC inmate who killed themselves at the MCC. 1 - https://heavy.com/news/2019/08/jeffrey-epstein-hyoid-bone-broken-neck/ https://heavy.com/news/2019/08/jeffrey-epstein-hyoid-bone-br...

Doubt? Care to elaborate and substantiate?

tptacek 7y ago

How about we not, since it has nothing to do with this thread?

wolco 7y ago
It has a lot to do with the timing of this thread. If he left a year ago I would agree but questions around his death put this story in the spotlight.
tomp 7y ago
Your unhelpful reply makes just as much noise as a helpful reply answering the question by ALittleLight

xtian 7y ago

Care to elaborate and substantiate your certainty? Doubt is the default stance of the rational and inquisitive mind.

ALittleLight 7y ago

Epstein was connected to many high profile, wealthy, and politically connected people. If he went to trial, his connections to these people may be exposed, and they may face legal liability. There are a number of suspicious circumstances regarding Epstein's alleged suicide. In no particular order: * Multiple bones in Epstein's neck were broken. This is possible in a suicide, but broken bones are more consistent with a homicide. [1] * Multiple video cameras malfunctioned outside Epstein's cell coincident with his death. [2] * Epstein's guards, who were supposed to be regularly checking on him did not. They were "asleep" before, during, and after Epstein's death. They later falsified records about this fact. [3] * The explanation for the failed video cameras and the sleeping guards is that the MCC is under staffed. Yet, that's at odds with the fact that there was only one other suicide in the past 40 years at the MCC [4]. I try to think about how I would regard Epstein's death if it happened in a history book, in a foreign country. "There was a guy who had material implicating numerous powerful figures. While he was being held in prison, recently released from suicide watch, isolated from his former cell mate in a cell by himself, cameras failed, his guards stopped checking on him, he became the first suicide in more than a couple decades by hanging himself by kneeling so forcefully against his bed sheet [5] that he broke multiple bones in his neck." I don't think, if I were reading about this at a distance, that I would have any real doubts about considering Epstein murdered. The idea that Epstein's suicide is as simple as alleged strikes me as preposterous. 1. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/autopsy-finds-broken-bones-in-jeffrey-epsteins-neck-deepening-questions-around-his-death/2019/08/14/d09ac934-bdd9-11e9-b873-63ace636af08_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/autopsy-finds-broken... 2. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-people-jeffrey-epstein-cameras/fbi-studies-two-broken-cameras-outside-cell-where-epstein-died-source-idUSKCN1VI2LC https://www.reuters.com/article/us-people-jeffrey-epstein-ca... 3. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/13/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-jail-officers.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/13/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-... 4. https://www.foxnews.com/us/epstein-new-york-lockup-suicides https://www.foxnews.com/us/epstein-new-york-lockup-suicides 5. https://www.foxnews.com/us/jeffrey-epstein-used-bedsheet-to-make-noose-report https://www.foxnews.com/us/jeffrey-epstein-used-bedsheet-to-...

tomp 7y ago
thanks for this extensively sourced summary!
DanBC 7y ago
> This is possible in a suicide You don't know much about ligaturing, do you? > Epstein's guards, who were supposed to be regularly checking on him did not. They were "asleep" before, during, and after Epstein's death. They later falsified records about this fact. This is worryingly common in prison and mental health hospitals. > Yet, that's at odds with the fact that there was only one other suicide in the past 40 years at the MCC [4]. Do you know what they're counting and how they count it? How do they define "suicide" and "at the MCC"?
- ALittleLight 7y ago
  I'm not an expert in ligaturing. Everything I've read though backs up what I wrote above, that it is possible that bones in the neck are broken in suicide by hanging, but more likely that they are broken by homicidal strangulation. This news source [1] goes over multiple academic papers that attempt to measure the likelihood of neck bone fractures in suicide versus homicide victims. On my own, I've searched and found multiple additional academic papers that, while disagreeing on the exact probabilities, all support the general conclusion that neck bone fractures are possible in a suicide but more likely in a homicide. The implication of your comment is that, unlike me, you do know much about ligaturing, so I'd be interested in getting your expert opinion. Are neck bone fractures equally likely in suicidal hanging and homicidal strangulation? You also write that the guards falling asleep is "worryingly common". I'm sure that's true - but what worries me most about this case is the confluence of multiple unlikely circumstances. Unfortunately the guards fell asleep, unluckily the video cameras failed, against the odds multiple bones in his neck broke while he knelt against his bed sheet, and, surprisingly, Epstein was the first suicide in 21 years at the facility. Regarding your question about definitions - my understanding is that "suicide" is meant as a person killing themselves, and "at the MCC" means an MCC inmate who killed themselves at the MCC. 1 - https://heavy.com/news/2019/08/jeffrey-epstein-hyoid-bone-broken-neck/ https://heavy.com/news/2019/08/jeffrey-epstein-hyoid-bone-br...