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> ...doesn't mean one condone the practice... Ohai, goalpost. I thought we were talking about normalizing things, not condoning them.

by rosser 7y ago

matz1 7y ago
Sorry let me rewrite that, hanging out with child trafficker doesn't mean normalizing child trafficking. What makes Child trafficking normal is if the law enforcement doesn't do anything.
- rosser 7y ago
  Please take some effort to improve your understanding of the notion of "social norms", how they're enforced, and how they evolve. I promise you, a person in a position of prestige or power openly, willingly associating with — even benefiting from — someone who is known to have committed a transgressive act is definitional of normalization.
  - matz1 7y ago
    Normalization of what ? 1. Normalization of the act of associating with someone that commit transgressive act or 2. Normalization of the transgressive act itself I agree with the first one but not the 2nd one.
    - rosser 7y ago
      How about: 3. Normalization of people who commit transgressive acts. Once again, for the nosebleed seats: this whole argument is about how the Media Lab's taking Epstein's money, and welcoming him on the premises, conveys the message, "Well, he can't be that bad." Remember how we follow the behavior of people more than their words, in determining what is and isn't acceptable? When people tell us one thing, and behave differently, we pretty reliably follow one of those over the other. So it does not matter how many times anyone says Epstein was a shitty guy who behaved shittily. Every single word is utterly undermined by the press release photo of him and Joichi-san smiling and shaking hands, or whatever. EDIT: So, while normalizing the person isn't directly normalizing the behavior, it's also kinda a distinction without a difference. A person who wants to behave like Epstein has been shown that he's still able to be socially accepted, even at the very highest levels of society, even if he does the thing that brazenly. How, exactly, is that not normalizing the behavior? In what possible way is that not all kinds of "Eh, whatever..." over something so egregious?
      - matz1 7y ago
        > 3. Normalization of people who commit transgressive acts. This could happen if the law enforcement let it happen. The question you should ask is why he is not already in jail since the transgressive act in question is already is illegal. Media Lab is not in position to put someone in jail or charge someone a crime.
        rosser 7y ago
        I'm well aware of which questions I should be asking about this situation. They aren't those. Thanks for your time. I don't see further discussion going anywhere new.
- nemothekid 7y ago
  >What makes Child trafficking normal is if the law enforcement doesn't do anything. I am trying to understand all the mental hoops you are going through right now to write that sentence in the midst of marijuana legalization right now. From "reefer madness" to now, the accepting of marijuana came directly from people working with, socializing with and being exposed to people smoking weed despite the fact that law enforcement pummeled millions of dollars and jailed an immense number of people for carrying insignificant amounts of marijuana. Law enforcement did an absolute shitton, and marijuana was still normalized. Hanging out with child trafficker, and accepting money from them and inviting them to your private events is normalization. You are saying to the world, that despite it being well known that this guy has been shown to have some socially objectionable character, that he is someone that you are totally ok to have around. Whether its drug-use, sexual orientation, or anything else.
  - matz1 7y ago
    In regards with marijuana, more and more people disagree that it should be illegal therefore its harder and harder for law enforcement to prevent it. With child trafficking, very rarely people want it to be legal. >Hanging out with child trafficker, and accepting money from them and inviting them to your private events is normalization Yes, it is normalization. The normalization of hanging out with child trafficker and accepting money from them. Note that is different than the normalization of child trafficking itself. There are could be many reason one want to associate with child trafficker that has nothing to do with child trafficking itself, likewise with taking money.
    - nemothekid 7y ago
      Your marijuana point makes no sense. Now your logic is circular -- 1. Normilization is when the police stop enforcing something 2. More and more people started to disagree with the legal status of marijuana 3. It became hard for police to enforce drug laws. You are now arguing that step 3 is normalization. What do you call step 2? I think most would agree that step 2 is normalization, and its effect is step 3. If step 2 is not normalization, then what is it? Remember - people truly believed marijuana caused people to murder and rape people all the way back in the 30s. In terms of public perception, it wasn't too far from child trafficking. >Note that is different than the normalization of child trafficking itself. It's not - you cannot remove those two. You can take parallels to how LGBTQ are portrayed in media. People credit Modern Family - which featured a homosexual couple - as normalizing homosexuals in our society, but you are making the claim that is"only normalizing homosexuals on tv." Thats ridiculous - the two are inexorably linked. It's not what happened. It showed people that if you are gay, you no longer have to live in hiding, that people will accept you, and you can live this "happy sitcom" life. If I am a child trafficker, and I see this guy Epstein shaking hands and kissing babies with a top academic, how is that not sending the message that "hey we know you kidnap kids, but we don't mind, come to our dinner"? Isn't that normalization?

> ...doesn't mean one condone the practice... Ohai, goalpost. I thought we were talking about normalizing things, not condoning them.

by rosser 7y ago

> ...doesn't mean one condone the practice... Ohai, goalpost. I thought we were talking about normalizing things, not condoning them.

matz1 7y ago

Sorry let me rewrite that, hanging out with child trafficker doesn't mean normalizing child trafficking. What makes Child trafficking normal is if the law enforcement doesn't do anything.

rosser 7y ago
Please take some effort to improve your understanding of the notion of "social norms", how they're enforced, and how they evolve. I promise you, a person in a position of prestige or power openly, willingly associating with — even benefiting from — someone who is known to have committed a transgressive act is definitional of normalization.
- matz1 7y ago
  Normalization of what ? 1. Normalization of the act of associating with someone that commit transgressive act or 2. Normalization of the transgressive act itself I agree with the first one but not the 2nd one.
  - rosser 7y ago
    How about: 3. Normalization of people who commit transgressive acts. Once again, for the nosebleed seats: this whole argument is about how the Media Lab's taking Epstein's money, and welcoming him on the premises, conveys the message, "Well, he can't be that bad." Remember how we follow the behavior of people more than their words, in determining what is and isn't acceptable? When people tell us one thing, and behave differently, we pretty reliably follow one of those over the other. So it does not matter how many times anyone says Epstein was a shitty guy who behaved shittily. Every single word is utterly undermined by the press release photo of him and Joichi-san smiling and shaking hands, or whatever. EDIT: So, while normalizing the person isn't directly normalizing the behavior, it's also kinda a distinction without a difference. A person who wants to behave like Epstein has been shown that he's still able to be socially accepted, even at the very highest levels of society, even if he does the thing that brazenly. How, exactly, is that not normalizing the behavior? In what possible way is that not all kinds of "Eh, whatever..." over something so egregious?
    - matz1 7y ago
      > 3. Normalization of people who commit transgressive acts. This could happen if the law enforcement let it happen. The question you should ask is why he is not already in jail since the transgressive act in question is already is illegal. Media Lab is not in position to put someone in jail or charge someone a crime.
      - rosser 7y ago
        I'm well aware of which questions I should be asking about this situation. They aren't those. Thanks for your time. I don't see further discussion going anywhere new.
nemothekid 7y ago
>What makes Child trafficking normal is if the law enforcement doesn't do anything. I am trying to understand all the mental hoops you are going through right now to write that sentence in the midst of marijuana legalization right now. From "reefer madness" to now, the accepting of marijuana came directly from people working with, socializing with and being exposed to people smoking weed despite the fact that law enforcement pummeled millions of dollars and jailed an immense number of people for carrying insignificant amounts of marijuana. Law enforcement did an absolute shitton, and marijuana was still normalized. Hanging out with child trafficker, and accepting money from them and inviting them to your private events is normalization. You are saying to the world, that despite it being well known that this guy has been shown to have some socially objectionable character, that he is someone that you are totally ok to have around. Whether its drug-use, sexual orientation, or anything else.
- matz1 7y ago
  In regards with marijuana, more and more people disagree that it should be illegal therefore its harder and harder for law enforcement to prevent it. With child trafficking, very rarely people want it to be legal. >Hanging out with child trafficker, and accepting money from them and inviting them to your private events is normalization Yes, it is normalization. The normalization of hanging out with child trafficker and accepting money from them. Note that is different than the normalization of child trafficking itself. There are could be many reason one want to associate with child trafficker that has nothing to do with child trafficking itself, likewise with taking money.
  - nemothekid 7y ago
    Your marijuana point makes no sense. Now your logic is circular -- 1. Normilization is when the police stop enforcing something 2. More and more people started to disagree with the legal status of marijuana 3. It became hard for police to enforce drug laws. You are now arguing that step 3 is normalization. What do you call step 2? I think most would agree that step 2 is normalization, and its effect is step 3. If step 2 is not normalization, then what is it? Remember - people truly believed marijuana caused people to murder and rape people all the way back in the 30s. In terms of public perception, it wasn't too far from child trafficking. >Note that is different than the normalization of child trafficking itself. It's not - you cannot remove those two. You can take parallels to how LGBTQ are portrayed in media. People credit Modern Family - which featured a homosexual couple - as normalizing homosexuals in our society, but you are making the claim that is"only normalizing homosexuals on tv." Thats ridiculous - the two are inexorably linked. It's not what happened. It showed people that if you are gay, you no longer have to live in hiding, that people will accept you, and you can live this "happy sitcom" life. If I am a child trafficker, and I see this guy Epstein shaking hands and kissing babies with a top academic, how is that not sending the message that "hey we know you kidnap kids, but we don't mind, come to our dinner"? Isn't that normalization?