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At the risk of just jumping on a single point: > I build things for people to use and maintain. Maintenance. Maintenance. Maintenance. That's the key. It is t

At the risk of just jumping on a single point: > I build things for people to use and maintain. Maintenance. Maintenance. Maintenance. That's the key. It is the lack of that mindset which is killing our home world. Ultimately, it's just expression of not having to pay for your externalities. It also kills software dev. If software devs were actually held to account for their legacy (software, hah), then we'd have a lot less shitty (and shitty+, shitty++, etc) software.

sepen77 7y ago
In context of this, I've always been thinking that software engineers should be held way more liable -- like those of the physical engineering disciplines. In order to enforce good software engineering practice, there must be either incentives or disincentives (carrot or stick) that have clear consequences on the engineer himself/herself. Otherwise there is nothing stopping them from producing bad work. It may be unintentional and the code perhaps is simply sloppy (but still works). This is just a thought (and may be unpopular): practices differ wildly from one company to another, and between enterprise software vs hacky side-projecty node apps, nonetheless, maybe it's time to standardize software good practices across the entire industry and enforce them, making them not just "good" practice, but mandatory practice.
- novok 7y ago
  If you create liability traps, the price of everything goes up and many things do not get made at all. It's like saying that tents shouldn't exist and people shouldn't use bicycles even though they are great tools for certain jobs. Nobody wants to pay for space shuttle levels of software engineering. It costs a lot in labor time to produce less results.
- wbl 7y ago
  The cost of bugs varies wildly. I do not want my FADEC to have the bugs my word processor has but I do want the word processor to have more features.
0xdeadbeefbabe 7y ago
What is the deal with maintenance engineers thinking every engineer ought to be one? Can't you agree it takes all types or is there something about maintenance that preempts such thoughts? Edit: Maybe I should go around pretending hackers and poets have the moral high ground.
- hinkley 7y ago
  I think it's contempt for people who won't stand by their work. Maintenance engineer implies a very long term relationship with code but you can't get some self-aggrandizing butterflies to support something they wrote a month ago. The truth should be somewhere in between. When you're young it's easy to derail your complaints by implying you are not smart enough to appreciate the magnificence of the code. I tend to take Feynman's position that if you're really so great, your solutions will be obvious.
- Quekid5 7y ago
  There is certainly room for art in our world. I'm just saying that what companies sell as products should not be made in the "art" mindset. Is that clearer?

sepen77 7y ago

In context of this, I've always been thinking that software engineers should be held way more liable -- like those of the physical engineering disciplines. In order to enforce good software engineering practice, there must be either incentives or disincentives (carrot or stick) that have clear consequences on the engineer himself/herself. Otherwise there is nothing stopping them from producing bad work. It may be unintentional and the code perhaps is simply sloppy (but still works). This is just a thought (and may be unpopular): practices differ wildly from one company to another, and between enterprise software vs hacky side-projecty node apps, nonetheless, maybe it's time to standardize software good practices across the entire industry and enforce them, making them not just "good" practice, but mandatory practice.

novok 7y ago
If you create liability traps, the price of everything goes up and many things do not get made at all. It's like saying that tents shouldn't exist and people shouldn't use bicycles even though they are great tools for certain jobs. Nobody wants to pay for space shuttle levels of software engineering. It costs a lot in labor time to produce less results.
wbl 7y ago
The cost of bugs varies wildly. I do not want my FADEC to have the bugs my word processor has but I do want the word processor to have more features.

0xdeadbeefbabe 7y ago

What is the deal with maintenance engineers thinking every engineer ought to be one? Can't you agree it takes all types or is there something about maintenance that preempts such thoughts? Edit: Maybe I should go around pretending hackers and poets have the moral high ground.

hinkley 7y ago
I think it's contempt for people who won't stand by their work. Maintenance engineer implies a very long term relationship with code but you can't get some self-aggrandizing butterflies to support something they wrote a month ago. The truth should be somewhere in between. When you're young it's easy to derail your complaints by implying you are not smart enough to appreciate the magnificence of the code. I tend to take Feynman's position that if you're really so great, your solutions will be obvious.
Quekid5 7y ago
There is certainly room for art in our world. I'm just saying that what companies sell as products should not be made in the "art" mindset. Is that clearer?