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Everyone should download the app in protest to ensure there's a lot of noise in the data. Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.atn.obsidi

Everyone should download the app in protest to ensure there's a lot of noise in the data. Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.atn.obsidian4K&hl=en_US https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.atn.obsidi... iOS: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/atn-obsidian-4/id1337731256 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/atn-obsidian-4/id1337731256 Downloading an app should never be considered reasonable suspicion or probable cause.

swalsh 7y ago
If you live in the US, does it help? It seems like they're looking for people outside the US using the technology.
- RIMR 7y ago
  They're not looking for anyone. They're looking for evidence that the scope manufacturer illegally exported to countries that they weren't allowed to, and tracking app downloads is certainly a way to do that.
VikingCoder 7y ago
> Downloading an app should never be considered reasonable suspicion or probable cause. Really? 1) You want to buy something illegal from me, I send you a play store link to an app that costs $800 and is a picture of a cat. You buy the app, I send you the illegal thing. If the feds find this out, and Alice and Bob and Carol also bought the app, don't you think that's probable cause? 2) Someone eventually figures out that an app seemed to have one purpose, but is covertly child porn. 3) An app is found to be a private communication mechanism for a terrorist cell. Can you not imagine scenarios like this?
- LyndsySimon 7y ago
  I think the parent meant that downloading an app in and of itself should not be PC. I agree. Almost everything you mention are extenuating circumstances, and give a clear reason why downloading that specific app would put you under suspicion. > 3) An app is found to be a private communication mechanism for a terrorist cell. This, however, is nonsense. GMail has been used extensively for that purpose, both to send regular old email, and to create drafts on shared accounts so that the messages never route over the network. Do you think downloading GMail is suspicious?
- nwallin 7y ago
  > 1) You want to buy something illegal from me, I send you a play store link to an app that costs $800 and is a picture of a cat. You buy the app, I send you the illegal thing. If the feds find this out, and Alice and Bob and Carol also bought the app, don't you think that's probable cause? You're skipping the part where the feds have demonstrated that the seller of an $800 cat picture is distributing illegal goods. That piece of evidence is the probably cause for getting the list of cat picture purchasers. The cost of the cat picture itself, without evidence of a crime, is not probably cause. In this case, ICE does not have evidence of anyone committing a crime, or at least if they do they're not sharing it. > 2) Someone eventually figures out that an app seemed to have one purpose, but is covertly child porn. You mean, if you get past the first 400 pipes in flappy bird, and hit the 401st pipe, it shows child porn? Certainly throw the app maker in jail. You mean, if you hit the 401st pipe and it brings up an interface to exchange child porn with other users? Certainly get a warrant for the data exchanged over that channel. You mean, the app is Firefox for Android and it allows you to browse to childporn.example.com? No, that does not give you probably cause to get a list of all users of that app. None of these possible interpretations of your comment (if I missed your actual meaning, please explain) apply to the app in question. The app does not appear to be in and of itself illegal, nor does it appear to facilitate criminal activity. > 3) An app is found to be a private communication mechanism for a terrorist cell. No. That's every email/chat app in the app market. Every single one of them.
gruez 7y ago
>Everyone should download the app in protest to ensure there's a lot of noise in the data. Surely they can filter out the noise because there's flood of people downloading them after news broke out?
- wdr1 7y ago
  In other words, a simple filtering by date range?
RIMR 7y ago
If you had read the article, you would realize that the users of the app aren't under suspicion. The feds want to know where the app was downloaded, because they're trying to figure out all the countries that the scope manufacturer illegally exported their scopes. The app only works with a specific scope. Let's let the feds do their job and investigate this company for the crime they committed.
- sixstringtheory 7y ago
  From the article: > the company itself isn’t under investigation, according to the order
  - marshray 7y ago
    Not sure what your point is. They're looking for exporters. If/when they find any, it seems likely they'll look closely at how the exporters obtained the products. This may or may not lead to the manufacturer.
    - sixstringtheory 7y ago
      Parent is building off of a clearly mistaken assumption in their post. And there was no need for them to be rude about it, either. My point was just to clear up a fact that seemed significant to me in the thread. The fact actually stuck out to me when I originally read the article. IANAL so I can’t comment on the different implications of pursuit of a stated suspect vs a dragnet with no known suspect.

swalsh 7y ago

If you live in the US, does it help? It seems like they're looking for people outside the US using the technology.

RIMR 7y ago
They're not looking for anyone. They're looking for evidence that the scope manufacturer illegally exported to countries that they weren't allowed to, and tracking app downloads is certainly a way to do that.

VikingCoder 7y ago

> Downloading an app should never be considered reasonable suspicion or probable cause. Really? 1) You want to buy something illegal from me, I send you a play store link to an app that costs $800 and is a picture of a cat. You buy the app, I send you the illegal thing. If the feds find this out, and Alice and Bob and Carol also bought the app, don't you think that's probable cause? 2) Someone eventually figures out that an app seemed to have one purpose, but is covertly child porn. 3) An app is found to be a private communication mechanism for a terrorist cell. Can you not imagine scenarios like this?

LyndsySimon 7y ago
I think the parent meant that downloading an app in and of itself should not be PC. I agree. Almost everything you mention are extenuating circumstances, and give a clear reason why downloading that specific app would put you under suspicion. > 3) An app is found to be a private communication mechanism for a terrorist cell. This, however, is nonsense. GMail has been used extensively for that purpose, both to send regular old email, and to create drafts on shared accounts so that the messages never route over the network. Do you think downloading GMail is suspicious?
nwallin 7y ago
> 1) You want to buy something illegal from me, I send you a play store link to an app that costs $800 and is a picture of a cat. You buy the app, I send you the illegal thing. If the feds find this out, and Alice and Bob and Carol also bought the app, don't you think that's probable cause? You're skipping the part where the feds have demonstrated that the seller of an $800 cat picture is distributing illegal goods. That piece of evidence is the probably cause for getting the list of cat picture purchasers. The cost of the cat picture itself, without evidence of a crime, is not probably cause. In this case, ICE does not have evidence of anyone committing a crime, or at least if they do they're not sharing it. > 2) Someone eventually figures out that an app seemed to have one purpose, but is covertly child porn. You mean, if you get past the first 400 pipes in flappy bird, and hit the 401st pipe, it shows child porn? Certainly throw the app maker in jail. You mean, if you hit the 401st pipe and it brings up an interface to exchange child porn with other users? Certainly get a warrant for the data exchanged over that channel. You mean, the app is Firefox for Android and it allows you to browse to childporn.example.com? No, that does not give you probably cause to get a list of all users of that app. None of these possible interpretations of your comment (if I missed your actual meaning, please explain) apply to the app in question. The app does not appear to be in and of itself illegal, nor does it appear to facilitate criminal activity. > 3) An app is found to be a private communication mechanism for a terrorist cell. No. That's every email/chat app in the app market. Every single one of them.

gruez 7y ago

>Everyone should download the app in protest to ensure there's a lot of noise in the data. Surely they can filter out the noise because there's flood of people downloading them after news broke out?

wdr1 7y ago
In other words, a simple filtering by date range?

RIMR 7y ago

If you had read the article, you would realize that the users of the app aren't under suspicion. The feds want to know where the app was downloaded, because they're trying to figure out all the countries that the scope manufacturer illegally exported their scopes. The app only works with a specific scope. Let's let the feds do their job and investigate this company for the crime they committed.

sixstringtheory 7y ago
From the article: > the company itself isn’t under investigation, according to the order
- marshray 7y ago
  Not sure what your point is. They're looking for exporters. If/when they find any, it seems likely they'll look closely at how the exporters obtained the products. This may or may not lead to the manufacturer.
  - sixstringtheory 7y ago
    Parent is building off of a clearly mistaken assumption in their post. And there was no need for them to be rude about it, either. My point was just to clear up a fact that seemed significant to me in the thread. The fact actually stuck out to me when I originally read the article. IANAL so I can’t comment on the different implications of pursuit of a stated suspect vs a dragnet with no known suspect.