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One of the unfortunate realities about the housing crisis is that you need crappy shitholes if you want complete housing coverage, because for those completely

One of the unfortunate realities about the housing crisis is that you need crappy shitholes if you want complete housing coverage, because for those completely out of their luck a 20 sq. ft. room with unfinished plywood walls and broken fire detectors is still a 1000% better than a torn-up tent in the park. Granted the place in this article is just a gentrified tenement for hipsters working in entry positions paying twice the national average but want to live in places for those making 3x the average, but that doesn't invalidate the need for ultra-barebones housing.

maxerickson 7y ago
Housing has like 30-40 year investment horizons. You don't need shitholes to house people, especially not in the wealthiest society in history.
benologist 7y ago
This reminds me of a mayor of a Canadian town that trialed giving homeless people houses. At first he was skeptical that they should have nice houses, then later realized it didn't matter. Why should they have granite countertops when I don't? https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-thursday-edition-1.3074402/medicine-hat-becomes-the-first-city-in-canada-to-eliminate-homelessness-1.3074742 https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-thursday-...
- dougmany 7y ago
  You ended that quote too soon. >"However, I've come around to realize that this makes financial sense." Clugston says that it costs about $20,000 a year to house someone. If they're on the street, it can cost up to $100,000 a year. This one is pretty heart warming too: >He says city staff found housing for one man, but he insisted on leaving to sleep under cars. Day after day, they'd search him out and take him back to his new home. "They did it 75 times, but they had the patience and they didn't give up on him and, eventually, he ended up staying in the house," he says. "Ultimately, people do want a roof over their heads."
  - leetcrew 7y ago
    > "Ultimately, people do want a roof over their heads." seems like a slightly unwarranted conclusion. alternative conclusion: "Ultimately, people will submit to living under a roof if they are relocated by state goons seventy five times."
    - 52-6F-62 7y ago
      I mean, do you know what winters can get like in Medicine Hat? Part of it was probably just realizing that they didn't have to suffer in the winter as they're accustomed...
      - benologist 7y ago
        I just need to be shown how to do things 75 times before I figure it out sometimes.
        wavefunction 7y ago
        Are you talking about a simple task or a deeply ingrained personal lifestyle perhaps encouraged by mental illness?
        benologist 7y ago
        I was really just making an example. The person wasn't necessarily being forced to stay under a roof by 'state goons', they may simply have needed to be shown 75 times to figure it out. There are many fields where that is normal albeit usually what we would consider more complex tasks and you'd generally expect someone to latch onto the knowledge faster. There are arts where the most basic moves will be practiced thousands of times to master them and still seek some further layer of understanding. When you consider the range of problems that contribute to homelessness I can imagine someone just needed to see it 75 times to learn it.
      - leetcrew 7y ago
        hard to say, the article just presents "man relocated 75 times, finally stays put" and the conclusion "ultimately everyone wants a roof over their head" back to back as if that conclusion obviously follows. the reader has no idea whether the guy genuinely preferred his new dwelling or if he just gave up resisting. or maybe the 75th time happened to line up with the first cold night and he decided to stay just for the winter. I'm not trying to be flippant here; I think we walk a dangerous line when we presume to know what's best for a person and especially when we apply pressure to get them to change their ways. one of my good friends from high school developed severe schizophrenia after graduating and has been homeless for several years now. he has a standing offer of support from his (wealthy) parents on the sole condition than he start some form of treatment. I and some of our other friends have repeatedly tried to help him get into housing, treatment, or even temporary shelter, and he always refuses. his parents had him involuntarily committed for a few days; he left as soon as he was able. when I run into him and ask how he's doing, he always says he's doing great and loves the freedom of his lifestyle. he doesn't look great, but is it really up to me to decide?
- angmarsbane 7y ago
  I don't understand why "why should they have granite countertops when I don't?" is a stupid thing to say. The article doesn't explain. Do you have more context, or is there anyone else here who can explain what's wrong with that statement?
inetknght 7y ago
> One of the unfortunate realities about the housing crisis is that you need crappy shitholes if you want complete housing coverage A more unfortunate reality about the housing crisis is the idea that we need crappy shitholes because wealthy elite want their own home prices ever higher out of reach from normal people.
- JoeAltmaier 7y ago
  That seems a non-sequitur. In a free market, the price isn't driven by what the owner 'wants'. Throwing 'wealthy elite' in there seems like snobbery. That sentence doesn't mean anything. A more interesting observation is, as population grows yet city infrastructure stagnates, housing prices go up. Something like that, that has actual logic behind it.
  - maxerickson 7y ago
    Housing isn't a free market, it's heavily regulated, with a healthy amount of influence from wealthy interests going into that regulation. Like, how do you observe the stagnation and not connect it to regulation?
    - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
      That was just an example, meant to foster meaningful commentary. But let me give it a try: Limited tax income (we all vote on that), geometric expansion of infrastructure cost as city radius grows, 'bow wave' of old insufficient infrastructure buried under the old city that cost bundles to remediate...you can go on and on. I know its fun to pretend conspiracies are everywhere, and the man is keeping you down. But there are real reasons for things, and its more helpful to know them. Especially if you plan on voting.
      - mindslight 7y ago
        On the supply side, building height and density are directly regulated by local politics. On the demand side, the asset price trend of housing / land is directly chosen by the central government when it picks interest rates. It's foolish to say that the housing market is anything resembling a free market. And brushing off discussion of specific mechanisms of causality as "conspiracy" is just intellectual laziness.
mikepurvis 7y ago
It sounds awful, and really there should be better-supported and more dignified social options to get people off the streets. But in the absence of those, I think you do have a point here. If nothing else, access to a proper shower is an important stepping stone in seeking out and holding down a job.
CobrastanJorji 7y ago
> If you want complete housing coverage, there must be crappy shitholes because a crappy shithole is better than sleeping in the park. That does not follow. You may be right, but not for that reason.
LifeLiverTransp 7y ago
U rob, or europe, but a choice there is.
hammock 7y ago
>housing crisis I don't think the housing crisis is the primary driver, rather it's cheap loans and a booming market for urban residential development. They built co-living in Chicago! There is no housing crisis here, if anything they are saying we are overbuilt. https://chicago.goquarters.com/west-loop/ https://chicago.goquarters.com/west-loop/
bobloblaw45 7y ago
I think this is often overlooked. In decades past single room occupancy housing was far more common. However they were seen as a blight to the city since it was mostly occupied by drug addicts and the poor. So cities and neighborhoods didn't complain once real estate started to take off and they began to be converted into more lucrative forms of housing. Eliminating the cheapest of the cheap eliminated the lesser of two evils.

maxerickson 7y ago

Housing has like 30-40 year investment horizons. You don't need shitholes to house people, especially not in the wealthiest society in history.

benologist 7y ago

This reminds me of a mayor of a Canadian town that trialed giving homeless people houses. At first he was skeptical that they should have nice houses, then later realized it didn't matter. Why should they have granite countertops when I don't? https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-thursday-edition-1.3074402/medicine-hat-becomes-the-first-city-in-canada-to-eliminate-homelessness-1.3074742 https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-thursday-...

dougmany 7y ago
You ended that quote too soon. >"However, I've come around to realize that this makes financial sense." Clugston says that it costs about $20,000 a year to house someone. If they're on the street, it can cost up to $100,000 a year. This one is pretty heart warming too: >He says city staff found housing for one man, but he insisted on leaving to sleep under cars. Day after day, they'd search him out and take him back to his new home. "They did it 75 times, but they had the patience and they didn't give up on him and, eventually, he ended up staying in the house," he says. "Ultimately, people do want a roof over their heads."
- leetcrew 7y ago
  > "Ultimately, people do want a roof over their heads." seems like a slightly unwarranted conclusion. alternative conclusion: "Ultimately, people will submit to living under a roof if they are relocated by state goons seventy five times."
  - 52-6F-62 7y ago
    I mean, do you know what winters can get like in Medicine Hat? Part of it was probably just realizing that they didn't have to suffer in the winter as they're accustomed...
    - benologist 7y ago
      I just need to be shown how to do things 75 times before I figure it out sometimes.
      - wavefunction 7y ago
        Are you talking about a simple task or a deeply ingrained personal lifestyle perhaps encouraged by mental illness?
        benologist 7y ago
        I was really just making an example. The person wasn't necessarily being forced to stay under a roof by 'state goons', they may simply have needed to be shown 75 times to figure it out. There are many fields where that is normal albeit usually what we would consider more complex tasks and you'd generally expect someone to latch onto the knowledge faster. There are arts where the most basic moves will be practiced thousands of times to master them and still seek some further layer of understanding. When you consider the range of problems that contribute to homelessness I can imagine someone just needed to see it 75 times to learn it.
    - leetcrew 7y ago
      hard to say, the article just presents "man relocated 75 times, finally stays put" and the conclusion "ultimately everyone wants a roof over their head" back to back as if that conclusion obviously follows. the reader has no idea whether the guy genuinely preferred his new dwelling or if he just gave up resisting. or maybe the 75th time happened to line up with the first cold night and he decided to stay just for the winter. I'm not trying to be flippant here; I think we walk a dangerous line when we presume to know what's best for a person and especially when we apply pressure to get them to change their ways. one of my good friends from high school developed severe schizophrenia after graduating and has been homeless for several years now. he has a standing offer of support from his (wealthy) parents on the sole condition than he start some form of treatment. I and some of our other friends have repeatedly tried to help him get into housing, treatment, or even temporary shelter, and he always refuses. his parents had him involuntarily committed for a few days; he left as soon as he was able. when I run into him and ask how he's doing, he always says he's doing great and loves the freedom of his lifestyle. he doesn't look great, but is it really up to me to decide?
angmarsbane 7y ago
I don't understand why "why should they have granite countertops when I don't?" is a stupid thing to say. The article doesn't explain. Do you have more context, or is there anyone else here who can explain what's wrong with that statement?

inetknght 7y ago

> One of the unfortunate realities about the housing crisis is that you need crappy shitholes if you want complete housing coverage A more unfortunate reality about the housing crisis is the idea that we need crappy shitholes because wealthy elite want their own home prices ever higher out of reach from normal people.

JoeAltmaier 7y ago
That seems a non-sequitur. In a free market, the price isn't driven by what the owner 'wants'. Throwing 'wealthy elite' in there seems like snobbery. That sentence doesn't mean anything. A more interesting observation is, as population grows yet city infrastructure stagnates, housing prices go up. Something like that, that has actual logic behind it.
- maxerickson 7y ago
  Housing isn't a free market, it's heavily regulated, with a healthy amount of influence from wealthy interests going into that regulation. Like, how do you observe the stagnation and not connect it to regulation?
  - JoeAltmaier 7y ago
    That was just an example, meant to foster meaningful commentary. But let me give it a try: Limited tax income (we all vote on that), geometric expansion of infrastructure cost as city radius grows, 'bow wave' of old insufficient infrastructure buried under the old city that cost bundles to remediate...you can go on and on. I know its fun to pretend conspiracies are everywhere, and the man is keeping you down. But there are real reasons for things, and its more helpful to know them. Especially if you plan on voting.
    - mindslight 7y ago
      On the supply side, building height and density are directly regulated by local politics. On the demand side, the asset price trend of housing / land is directly chosen by the central government when it picks interest rates. It's foolish to say that the housing market is anything resembling a free market. And brushing off discussion of specific mechanisms of causality as "conspiracy" is just intellectual laziness.

mikepurvis 7y ago

It sounds awful, and really there should be better-supported and more dignified social options to get people off the streets. But in the absence of those, I think you do have a point here. If nothing else, access to a proper shower is an important stepping stone in seeking out and holding down a job.

CobrastanJorji 7y ago

> If you want complete housing coverage, there must be crappy shitholes because a crappy shithole is better than sleeping in the park. That does not follow. You may be right, but not for that reason.

LifeLiverTransp 7y ago

U rob, or europe, but a choice there is.

hammock 7y ago

>housing crisis I don't think the housing crisis is the primary driver, rather it's cheap loans and a booming market for urban residential development. They built co-living in Chicago! There is no housing crisis here, if anything they are saying we are overbuilt. https://chicago.goquarters.com/west-loop/ https://chicago.goquarters.com/west-loop/

bobloblaw45 7y ago

I think this is often overlooked. In decades past single room occupancy housing was far more common. However they were seen as a blight to the city since it was mostly occupied by drug addicts and the poor. So cities and neighborhoods didn't complain once real estate started to take off and they began to be converted into more lucrative forms of housing. Eliminating the cheapest of the cheap eliminated the lesser of two evils.