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Feds Demand Apple and Google Hand over Names of 10k Users of a Gun Scope App
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- pequalsnp 7y agoApple probably won’t comply with this request from the government, but I bet that Google will.
- Grazester 7y agoGoogle does not give away its data on people anymore readily than Apple does.
- vezycash 7y agoYou mean, Unless Google gets paid for it.
- Grazester 7y agoCan you please tell me when has google ever sold or readily given up personal data?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- vezycash 7y agohttps://brave.com/google-gdpr-workaround/ https://brave.com/google-gdpr-workaround/ The accompanying discussion on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20876248 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20876248
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- bduerst 7y agoThat is not an article about selling or giving up personal data. You dodged the question with irrelevant links.
- paulsutter 7y agoAbout a couple million times a second, to each of about 2000 companies that do realtime bidding, just now.
- emiliobumachar 7y agoThere's a distinction between selling targeted ads based on personal data, and selling personal data, eh?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- Nasrudith 7y agoThat is more a sound bite meme than anything factual. They can only sell the root data once to people who likely have no idea how to use it for advertising and would rapidly lead to very bad looking headlines the first time a stalker used it. Meanwhile they can use it to sell ads indefinitely.
- bduerst 7y agoEven less so. Google canned their project dragonfly, which was to share user data with the Chinese government, while Apple quietly handed over the iCloud encryption keys for all their users.
- cromwellian 7y agoGoogle was the first company and for years the only one that published transparency reports on government requests and how many were rejected vs accepted, as well as publishing a detailed look at how requests are handled. This chart shows Apple complies with the government more than any of the other companies, at least for 2015. https://www.theatlas.com/charts/NyA7HZeog https://www.theatlas.com/charts/NyA7HZeog
- theferalrobot 7y agoThis chart says the exact opposite: https://www.theatlas.com/charts/3eDG1I42R https://www.theatlas.com/charts/3eDG1I42R (Anyone can make a chart on that site and with no sources they are both equally useless)
- bduerst 7y ago>Data-yielding requests, Jan to June 2015
- ocdtrekkie 7y agoBoth charts actually claim to be Jan to June 2015. The parent was demonstrating that he could make a chart claiming an identical timeframe and claim as the grandparent's, but with contrary data.
- cromwellian 7y agoMy chart was taken from a Quartz report, and has the author listed in it. The journalist made the charts, presumably by collecting it from the individual transparency reports. https://qz.com/620423/heres-how-often-apple-google-and-others-handed-over-data-when-the-us-government-asked-for-it/ https://qz.com/620423/heres-how-often-apple-google-and-other...
- baby 7y agoYou are very naïve
- willis936 7y agoThis is so illegal it’s basically blatant gimme for the tech companies to have cool PR by sticking their finger up to the man. This story has come up twice a year for the past five years.
- rhacker 7y agoPerhaps the government wouldn't get such a bad name for this stuff if they just registered as an advertising company and started paying FAANG for data like they were a college based research company.
- phkahler 7y agoI just assume that already goes on. I find the amount of money going into advertising quite amazing. What part of that is just government(s) collecting data?
- tracker1 7y agoI still don't get why those company's executives aren't charged under the Computer Fraud And Abuse Act... I mean, they've clearly violated TOS and accessing the data in bad faith. -- edit To the downvote... we're talking about companies that slurped up data (illegally) from social networks, then sold both the data and services based on this data. Sure, they can throw the book at someone copying research papers, but a corporation that acts in bad faith invading the privacy of hundreds of millions gets a pass?
- otterley 7y agoAttorney here! What act, specifically, do you believe is illegal, and what laws make it so?
- deleted 7y ago[deleted]
- driverdan 7y agoYou make a good point. The article is light on specifics so it's hard to determine how they made the request. It says "court order" which, as you know, could mean a number of things. That said, no court should be approving any demand for this data. It's 100% fishing.
- mfer 7y ago&tldr; the scopes are controlled under ITAR and have been found to end up in locations outside of where it should be under ITAR. They are looking to locate scopes where they shouldn't legally be. Given Apple and Google have location data on people (or at least Google does) the information for those using the App outside of the US or in ITAR restricted places could have been requested. Instead they went for all records. I hope this nuance isn't lost. I wonder if they are doing this under a pen register.
- wcunning 7y agoWhere can I find a good primer on the powers of the feds with regard to ITAR enforcement? Have there been any law review articles discussing the powers relating to the contemporary systems like this with two parts and disable-able software (the scope is at least much less useful if you don't have the app)?
- post_break 7y agoThe scope works perfectly without the app. Have used one. I believe apps don't fall under ITAR.
- LyndsySimon 7y ago> I believe apps don't fall under ITAR. Looks like they do. The scopes this app works for are digital scopes, and don't use traditional intensifier tubes. I'm not sure enough of the technical specs to know if the night vision component meets the ITAR requirements, but the ballistic calculator certainly does: https://www.atncorp.com/x-sight2-hd-day-night-rifle-scope-3-14x https://www.atncorp.com/x-sight2-hd-day-night-rifle-scope-3-... Find what I believe to be the relevant ITAR sections that would classify the app as a "munition" below this line: ------------------- Category XII: (c) Imaging systems or end items, as follows: [...] (c)(2) Weapon sights (i.e., with a reticle) or aiming or imaging systems (e.g., clip-on), specially designed to mount to a weapon or to withstand weapon shock or recoil, with or without an integrated viewer or display, and also incorporating or specially designed to incorporate any of the following: [...] (c)(2)(iii) Ballistic computing electronics for adjusting the aim point display; or [...] (x) Commodities, software, and technology subject to the EAR (see §120.42 of this subchapter) used in or with defense articles controlled in this category.
- trhway 7y ago>Google and Apple should definitely fight these requests as they represent a very slippery slope. It is kind of strange that the stopping (or not) of such a blatant unconstitutional action affecting fundamental rights of so many people (especially if the action succeeds and gets established as precedent) depends only on goodwill/caprice of a couple of for-profit corporate entities. I wonder shouldn't be there a system/process where any person whose data is to be handed over would get a chance to challenge it in court (at least like for example it was in the good old times of the movie industry going after alleged pirates)
- ummonk 7y agoI wonder whether this might violate GDPR if the companies just voluntarily handed the data over and it included Europeans.
- bilbo0s 7y agoJust from a purely legal perspective, I'm not sure Apple and Google are even supposed to have that data? The company that sells the app, assuming they collected the information, technically was not supposed to share anything with Apple or Google. (Or rather, they were only supposed to share under certain very specific conditions.) So I can't really tell what the Feds are asking for in particular? But assuming they are asking for information specific to the app, I'm not sure that Apple or Google were supposed to be snooping that information under GDPR? And I'm very sure that the app maker was not supposed to be collecting it in any kind of a way that shared it with Google or Apple. (Certainly not sharing it outright.)
- derefr 7y agoApple/Google presumably know who purchased the app, through their respective app stores.
- LyndsySimon 7y agoFWIW, it's free.
- PhasmaFelis 7y agoI was curious what the actual justification for the data grab is. The article buries it halfway down, but tl;dr the feds think that some of the scopes have been illegally exported (by parties unknown) in violation of arms-trafficking laws, and they think that learning where they're being used will help them track down the exporters. "Reports online" (for all they're worth) claim that the Taliban got some of them.
- post_break 7y agoMy friend has one of these scopes. It lets you shoot in the dark since it uses IR for night vision. You can connect a phone to it, I was able to watch him shooting through my phone sitting next to him. It's really cool technology. We use it for hog hunting at night.
- LyndsySimon 7y agoI have a couple of ATN's older scopes. My favorite is a 4x Gen 2 that I picked up at a pawn shop for $200 a couple of years ago. It's amazing for what it is. I have it mounted on a single-shot .22 rifle, which is somewhat absurd - the rifle is tiny and the scope weighs easily as much as the gun. My daughters raise rabbits, and although I certainly don't live in an urban area (I have safe lanes of fire) I do have neighbors* on each side and don't want to be waking them up at 3am with gunfire when a raccoon or coyote tries to kill our rabbits. .22 "CB" rounds are about as powerful as a high-end pellet gun and quieter to boot. There's an inexpensive IR IPcam pointed at the rabbit hutches and I get notifications on my phone when it detects movement. That combination has saved me a good deal in terms of rabbits and heartbreak - having to go clean up the remains of a rabbit that your five-year-old thought of as a family pet is not a fun experience at all. :( * My neighbors are aware of and tolerant of my shooting at night. It's not at all uncommon where I live, but this is HN, and many people here don't share this part of my lifestyle. I'm adding this note lest someone not familiar with it thinks I'm sneaking around a residential neighborhood in the middle of the night with night vision unbeknownst to others here. They've called me more than once when they have had issues with animals getting into their trash and such. I use humane traps in those cases and release the animals on some property my family owns much further away from civilization.
- dsfyu404ed 7y agoNow you just need to train a NN to recognize raccoons. ;) Also, it's kind of sad the level of "don't worry, I'm safe and responsible" disclaiming you need to do around here for this type of thing.
- ourmandave 7y agoHave you thought about getting a pet raccoon instead? /s
- driverdan 7y agoEveryone should download the app in protest to ensure there's a lot of noise in the data. Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.atn.obsidian4K&hl=en_US https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.atn.obsidi... iOS: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/atn-obsidian-4/id1337731256 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/atn-obsidian-4/id1337731256 Downloading an app should never be considered reasonable suspicion or probable cause.
- swalsh 7y agoIf you live in the US, does it help? It seems like they're looking for people outside the US using the technology.
- RIMR 7y agoThey're not looking for anyone. They're looking for evidence that the scope manufacturer illegally exported to countries that they weren't allowed to, and tracking app downloads is certainly a way to do that.
- VikingCoder 7y ago> Downloading an app should never be considered reasonable suspicion or probable cause. Really? 1) You want to buy something illegal from me, I send you a play store link to an app that costs $800 and is a picture of a cat. You buy the app, I send you the illegal thing. If the feds find this out, and Alice and Bob and Carol also bought the app, don't you think that's probable cause? 2) Someone eventually figures out that an app seemed to have one purpose, but is covertly child porn. 3) An app is found to be a private communication mechanism for a terrorist cell. Can you not imagine scenarios like this?
- LyndsySimon 7y agoI think the parent meant that downloading an app in and of itself should not be PC. I agree. Almost everything you mention are extenuating circumstances, and give a clear reason why downloading that specific app would put you under suspicion. > 3) An app is found to be a private communication mechanism for a terrorist cell. This, however, is nonsense. GMail has been used extensively for that purpose, both to send regular old email, and to create drafts on shared accounts so that the messages never route over the network. Do you think downloading GMail is suspicious?
- laythea 7y agoI'm not familiar with the intricacies here, so maybe someone can help me out, but if it is the case that using the app in certain geo-locations is illegal, then why have Apple allowed its download and use. Surely, Apple has the responsibility here?
- CoolGuySteve 7y agoHow long until we get a cheap $5 app that acts like this computer controlled rifle: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/03/bullseye-from-1000-yards-shooting-the-17000-linux-powered-rifle/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/03/bullseye-from-1000-y... Seems easy enough to throw together some OpenCV calls that estimate distance, gravity drop, jitter, and then download a local weather report for pressure/wind. After which you can draw a reticle that highlights when/where to fire, similar to those HUD trackers in combat flight simulators.
- scarface74 7y agoWhy isn’t the NRA all over this?
- krapp 7y agoWhy would they be? This seems to me to be an obvious breach of privacy and broad overreach of investigative authority, but it isn't really a Second Amendment issue. The right to keep and bear arms doesn't extend to rifle scopes, and nothing about this threatens gun rights per se.
- scarface74 7y agoThe same NRA that’s fighting tooth and nail to make silencers easier to buy? The NRA has always been paranoid about the government collecting information on gun owners to the point where they pushed for laws not allowing doctors to ask about gun ownership.
- Karunamon 7y agoIs it possible to dig up the actual court filing here?
- zelon88 7y agoIsn't it also in breach of ITAR to be providing the infrastructure to service these illegally exported scopes? Is it a self hosted connection or more third party (like TeamViewer)?
- brokenmachine 7y agoThey'd have to be wifi to a tethered phone, wouldn't they? Otherwise the latency would be ridiculous.
- Apocryphon 7y agoThis doesn't even sound like an effective way to combat terrorism!