7 ms·

besides the offensive nature of those words The point was that the stereotype is formed quite strongly because those groups do exist on campus. He was using t

by araneae 16y ago

besides the offensive nature of those words The point was that the stereotype is formed quite strongly because those groups do exist on campus. He was using those words to demonstrate why using different academic criteria for different groups of students was problematic. If there were no academic differences between the regular student body and minorities or athletes people wouldn't make those "offensive" generalizations.

_pius 16y ago
If there were no academic differences between the regular student body and minorities ... You keep using that phrase, affirmative action. I do not think it means what you think it means. Modern affirmative action in higher education isn't about meeting quotas and admitting inferior students; rather, it's more like the Rooney Rule in the NFL, a way to make sure that minority students are getting looked at. By the way, MIT has an active affirmative action program and we still seem to be doing just fine.
- araneae 16y ago
  I'm pretty sure I didn't use the phrase affirmative action so I'm rather taken aback that you think I don't know what it means. I'm sure you don't know what καλημέρα means, but I have better chance at being right because it's in Greek. And I wouldn't rub your face in it anyway. But since you brought it up... At Caltech they didn't say they didn't use affirmative action at all. They said they didn't lower the "academic" criteria- i.e. test scores and GPA- for minority students. They do that at some schools. I wouldn't know about MIT.
  - _pius 16y ago
    And I wouldn't rub your face in it anyway. Funny, you certainly had no problem rubbing your offensive, misguided views about minority students in my face. They said they didn't lower the "academic" criteria- i.e. test scores and GPA- for minority students. They do that at some schools. I wouldn't know about MIT. They don't do that at any schools in the United States, actually ... at least not at any in compliance with Federal law.
    - araneae 16y ago
      First you say I used the phrase affirmative action when anyone could see that I didn't. And then you say that I have offensive and misguided views about minority students when I have not professed any views about minority students. I don't think I'm being overly inventive when I say you seem rather inventive.
      - _pius 16y ago
        And then you say that I have offensive and misguided views about minority students when I have not professed any views about minority students. Sure you have, scare quotes and all. From your comment: The point was that the stereotype is formed quite strongly because those groups do exist on campus .... If there were no academic differences between the regular student body and minorities or athletes people wouldn't make those "offensive" generalizations.
        araneae 16y ago
        How is that misguided or offensive? It's simply a fact that if you lower academic standards for athletes, then the stereotype will be that the athletes are of lower academic caliber. Because they are. It was a statement of fact. I suppose the truth can be offensive...
        _pius 16y ago
        I suppose the truth can be offensive... Except that it's not the truth ... no schools do that for minority students. It's a strawman.
        araneae 16y ago
        It's not a strawman. At UoM, the point system was designed so that being a racial or ethnic minority was worth the same number of points as a full grade point (i.e. a white student with a high school 4.0 was equivalent point-wise to a black student with a high school 3.0.) For athletes, I remember it was about 1/5 of that amount of points, but I could be wrong on that score. Having taught at UoM, I can say that unfortunately this translated to their performance on exams as well...
- HistoryInAction 16y ago
  As a follow-up, in the late '70s, Caltech changed the admissions policies to go from application review by one professor to review by a committee of three. The % of women in the next class jumped by about 3x from one year to the next, from about 5% or so. Admissions is done completely differently today, but I still find that to be an interesting anecdote.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  I think affirmative action does mean what he thinks it means. Data is hard to come by, but here are a two data points: The University of Michigan would give you +1.0 on GPA if you were black (e.g., 2.8 GPA -> 3.8 GPA): http://www.cir-usa.org/Images/mich_index.gif http://www.cir-usa.org/Images/mich_index.gif Medical schools have similar practices - the average black student accepted into medical school has GPA/MCAT a full standard deviation below the average white student. (I.e., 50% of black medical students are in the bottom 20% of medical students.) http://web.archive.org/web/20080801022539/http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2007/mcatgparaceeth07.htm http://web.archive.org/web/20080801022539/http://www.aamc.or...
jberryman 16y ago
If there were no academic differences between the regular student body and minorities or athletes people wouldn't make those "offensive" generalizations. Oh really? I suppose it's unlikely that peoples' prejudices could cause them to make inaccurate generalizations about the world around them. And do go on about the differences between the minorites and the "regular students". He was using those words to demonstrate why using different academic criteria for different groups of students was problematic. The assumption being that this is actually happening to a significant degree. The SCOTUS has set down fairly strict rules governing affirmative action in admissions processes, including forbidding quotas and rigid point-systems that benefit minorities.
- rsheridan6 16y ago
  The article says: "The academic achievement gap between the admitted white and Asian students and those designated as "underrepresented minorities" is often huge, in statistical terms often exceeding a full standard deviation (equivalent to a 600 vs. a 700 on each of the sections of the SAT exam)." Sounds like a significant degree to me. Should the OP pretend not to notice this is happening? I know it doesn't cite sources, but neither do you.

by araneae 16y ago

_pius 16y ago

If there were no academic differences between the regular student body and minorities ... You keep using that phrase, affirmative action. I do not think it means what you think it means. Modern affirmative action in higher education isn't about meeting quotas and admitting inferior students; rather, it's more like the Rooney Rule in the NFL, a way to make sure that minority students are getting looked at. By the way, MIT has an active affirmative action program and we still seem to be doing just fine.

araneae 16y ago
I'm pretty sure I didn't use the phrase affirmative action so I'm rather taken aback that you think I don't know what it means. I'm sure you don't know what καλημέρα means, but I have better chance at being right because it's in Greek. And I wouldn't rub your face in it anyway. But since you brought it up... At Caltech they didn't say they didn't use affirmative action at all. They said they didn't lower the "academic" criteria- i.e. test scores and GPA- for minority students. They do that at some schools. I wouldn't know about MIT.
- _pius 16y ago
  And I wouldn't rub your face in it anyway. Funny, you certainly had no problem rubbing your offensive, misguided views about minority students in my face. They said they didn't lower the "academic" criteria- i.e. test scores and GPA- for minority students. They do that at some schools. I wouldn't know about MIT. They don't do that at any schools in the United States, actually ... at least not at any in compliance with Federal law.
  - araneae 16y ago
    First you say I used the phrase affirmative action when anyone could see that I didn't. And then you say that I have offensive and misguided views about minority students when I have not professed any views about minority students. I don't think I'm being overly inventive when I say you seem rather inventive.
    - _pius 16y ago
      And then you say that I have offensive and misguided views about minority students when I have not professed any views about minority students. Sure you have, scare quotes and all. From your comment: The point was that the stereotype is formed quite strongly because those groups do exist on campus .... If there were no academic differences between the regular student body and minorities or athletes people wouldn't make those "offensive" generalizations.
      - araneae 16y ago
        How is that misguided or offensive? It's simply a fact that if you lower academic standards for athletes, then the stereotype will be that the athletes are of lower academic caliber. Because they are. It was a statement of fact. I suppose the truth can be offensive...
        _pius 16y ago
        I suppose the truth can be offensive... Except that it's not the truth ... no schools do that for minority students. It's a strawman.
        araneae 16y ago
        It's not a strawman. At UoM, the point system was designed so that being a racial or ethnic minority was worth the same number of points as a full grade point (i.e. a white student with a high school 4.0 was equivalent point-wise to a black student with a high school 3.0.) For athletes, I remember it was about 1/5 of that amount of points, but I could be wrong on that score. Having taught at UoM, I can say that unfortunately this translated to their performance on exams as well...
HistoryInAction 16y ago
As a follow-up, in the late '70s, Caltech changed the admissions policies to go from application review by one professor to review by a committee of three. The % of women in the next class jumped by about 3x from one year to the next, from about 5% or so. Admissions is done completely differently today, but I still find that to be an interesting anecdote.
yummyfajitas 16y ago
I think affirmative action does mean what he thinks it means. Data is hard to come by, but here are a two data points: The University of Michigan would give you +1.0 on GPA if you were black (e.g., 2.8 GPA -> 3.8 GPA): http://www.cir-usa.org/Images/mich_index.gif http://www.cir-usa.org/Images/mich_index.gif Medical schools have similar practices - the average black student accepted into medical school has GPA/MCAT a full standard deviation below the average white student. (I.e., 50% of black medical students are in the bottom 20% of medical students.) http://web.archive.org/web/20080801022539/http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2007/mcatgparaceeth07.htm http://web.archive.org/web/20080801022539/http://www.aamc.or...

jberryman 16y ago

If there were no academic differences between the regular student body and minorities or athletes people wouldn't make those "offensive" generalizations. Oh really? I suppose it's unlikely that peoples' prejudices could cause them to make inaccurate generalizations about the world around them. And do go on about the differences between the minorites and the "regular students". He was using those words to demonstrate why using different academic criteria for different groups of students was problematic. The assumption being that this is actually happening to a significant degree. The SCOTUS has set down fairly strict rules governing affirmative action in admissions processes, including forbidding quotas and rigid point-systems that benefit minorities.

rsheridan6 16y ago
The article says: "The academic achievement gap between the admitted white and Asian students and those designated as "underrepresented minorities" is often huge, in statistical terms often exceeding a full standard deviation (equivalent to a 600 vs. a 700 on each of the sections of the SAT exam)." Sounds like a significant degree to me. Should the OP pretend not to notice this is happening? I know it doesn't cite sources, but neither do you.