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Americans have been dismantling and weakening their regulatory bodies for quite a while now. The idea is that this will unshackle big corporations and allow the

Americans have been dismantling and weakening their regulatory bodies for quite a while now. The idea is that this will unshackle big corporations and allow them to innovate faster. This sounds like a great idea, until you realize that this “innovation” is most often about increasing profits. And the quality of the product is often sacrificed to increase profits. Just look at what is happening to telecommunication services, with big corporations growing their profits while Americans get stuck with slow and expensive service that becomes relatively worse comparing to other western countries. Lack of proper regulation (or enforcement) might lead to short-term gains in some economic indicators, but in the long term will lead to worse quality, relative decline of America comparing to other countries, and sometimes -like in this case- avoidable deaths of hundreds of innocent people.

tyri_kai_psomi 7y ago
This is a common misunderstanding I see repeated a lot. The idea isn't unshackling big corporations, it's about unshackling small to medium sized businesses and entrepreneurs. Big corps actually love regulations for the barriers to entry they create, and most of them already have a whole host of regulatory compliance teams armed and ready to dissect the next big regulation that comes. > Americans get stuck with slow and expensive service that becomes relatively worse comparing to other western countries. Internet speeds in most suburban, and urban locations in the US have dramatically increased as of late due to increased threat of competition (namely Google Fiber, which prompted AT&T to start heavily developing Fiber, which prompted the Spectrums of the world to increase speeds) and could be further accelerated by deregulation. Regulations are actually the primary reason that keeps cable companies in their monopolistic/oligarlistic positions. As far as I am aware, the only western countries that have surpassed the US in internet speeds and stability for the majority of its populace are actually east, in countries like S.Korea and Japan. Interestingly enough, Japan is mostly voluntarily self regulated.
- minikites 7y ago
  >Big corps actually love regulations for the barriers to entry they create, and most of them already have a whole host of regulatory compliance teams armed and ready to dissect the next big regulation that comes. So then why do big corporations spend so much time and money lobbying against regulation?
  - jtc331 7y ago
    It’s more nuanced than either of these ways of putting it. They lobby for specific regulation packages that work well for keeping competitors out. Regulation does set up barriers to entry, generally by definition. Needing to have lawyers e during compliance etc. is expensive. So $BIGCORP’s ideal position is regulation that they can absorb easily but smaller competitors can’t.
  - pixl97 7y ago
    And I will ask, why do big corporations spend so much time and money lobbying for regulations that benefit them?
- rsynnott 7y ago
  So, on the high end, the US is fine, and thus is does fairly well on mean speeds (top 10 on some metrics). However, if your internet in the US is bad, it's often really, _really_ bad. In areas without competition, providers still sometimes use ADSL1! (Max 8 down, <1 up, if you're lucky). In general, the tendency in most European countries has been to force wholesaling and/or LLU, and set minimum standards for both; this has generally at least wiped out ADSL1. The FCC is somewhat lighter touch.
  - tompccs 7y ago
    Some of the problems are unique to America - for instance, states each have their own regulations, as well as federal ones, which makes nationwide roll-out far costlier. You also have way more geographic concentration of homes in Europe, which makes the ROI for roll-out over a particular area way better. UK's utilities are generally quite good (despite grumbling), which I think is because regulators focus on creating frictionless marketplaces - ie, easy to switch, providers can't obfuscate costs, proliferation of comission-based switching services.
    - rsynnott 7y ago
      I don't think the "US is big" argument really works when it comes to forcing telcos to get rid of their 20th century DSLAMs. Like, obviously ideally they'd be upgrading to something semi-modern, but even swapping out the last of the ADSL1 for ADSL2+, like it was 2006, would be an improvement.
  - merb 7y ago
    well is ADSL1 that bad? in most cases (non video on demand) bandwidth is never the problem. no matter how good your bandwidth is as soon as the latency is bad, it won't get better.
    - rsynnott 7y ago
      Yes, ADSL1 is that bad. 8Mbit/sec is the best case, but closer to 1 or 2 is common depending on distance from exchange. About a 30ms latency penalty, IIRC.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- peteradio 7y ago
  I don't think its useful to say big corps vs small/medium corps without specifying industry.
- mobilefriendly 7y ago
  I live in a DC exurb and literally do not have land-based internet access at home. The US broadband regime is a massive failure. It delivers neither high speeds nor universal access.
- mannykannot 7y ago
  > Big corps actually love regulations for the barriers to entry they create... When they can get regulations that have that effect, then they are indeed in favor of them, but in this case, Boeing was doing all it could to avoid and subvert regulation in its haste to catch up with its competitor.
- pjkundert 7y ago
  It astonishes me that so few HNers have (evidently) tried to start businesses. The staggering regulatory, tax and accounting burden that small business are groaning under is incomprehensible, unless you've experienced it. I'm a Canadian, in a super-simple business (no payroll, no significant hardward stock) and we are forced to spend double-digit percentages of our gross income just to stay "compliant" with regulations -- and our big, national-level accounting firm is still not certain that we are! In my opinion, any small business owner that thinks they are complying with regulations is probably deluding themselves; one false step, one "investigation" by tax or regulatory authorities (of, if they get on the bad side of someone in these offices) -- and they are toast. So, before you go about chanting in the streets for more regulation, think about who you're hurting. Any company with an office tower, with several floors of lawyers and accountants is laughing at you, for being a "useful idiot", working on their behalf. They can trivially comply. Because, remember -- they wrote the legislation. Your esteemed member of parliament or congress person doesn't write legislation. At best, they might adjust it after it gets dropped on their desk. The lobbyist, and the corporate lawyers and accountants who oversee them, wrote it, and gave it to your legislator.
  - throwing_shade 7y ago
    It astonishes me the amount of HNers that think their _personal anecdote_ is worth anything. Here is mine: Big corporations fear regulation. I work at a small company and I am very certain I am compliant. I used to work at big company. Wow! That disproves everything you just said, doesn't it?
  - jdavis703 7y ago
    I'm an HNer who has started and sold my own businesses, I have family who have founded & operated businesses in highly regulated areas, and I'm an investor in startups. I have also been audited by the IRS (the US tax service). One wrong step does not mean you're toast. It means you need to admit and fix your mistake and make sure it doesn't happen again. I'm sure agencies such as the FAA or DOE might be more of a PITA to deal with. But that's because they're regulating functions that are literally life and death.
StreamBright 7y ago
I think you slightly confuse regulations and enforcement.
- ceejayoz 7y ago
  Effective regulation requires effective enforcement of regulations.
  - StreamBright 7y ago
    Exactly, I think there is nothing wrong with the legislation but many things wrong with the enforcement. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/faa-knew-another-boeing-737-max-malfunction-was-likely-after-lion-air-crash/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/faa-knew-another-boeing-737-max...
dahart 7y ago
Regulatory capture is one term for this unshackling. I was a bit surprised to see how long and detailed Wikipedia’s list of examples of regulatory capture in the U.S. is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture#United_States_examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture#United_Stat...
jayess 7y ago
> Just look at what is happening to telecommunication services, with big corporations growing their profits while Americans get stuck with slow and expensive service that becomes relatively worse comparing to other western countries. I get 1 gig internet service for $80 a month in a mid-sized American city in the midwest. No complaints here. The offerings just keep getting better and cheaper.
- magduf 7y ago
  In places like Romania, you can get internet service for a fraction of that price.
  - wlesieutre 7y ago
    I was curious how that compared with prices of other goods/services so I found this: https://checkinprice.com/cost-of-living-in-bucharest-romania/ https://checkinprice.com/cost-of-living-in-bucharest-romania... Monthly public transport ticket 14.55 USD 1 ticket to the movies (adult price) 5.70 USD High speed internet per month 9.50 USD 1 month gym subscription 41.30 USD Assuming that's accurate, other stuff is cheaper than US cities but not by nearly as much as internet service. I could go for a $10/month high speed connection.
    - magduf 7y ago
      Yep, this is exactly my point. A lot of stuff in various European cities isn't cheaper, or not that much cheaper, than internet service, so internet service in America is comparatively overpriced. Of course, everything else in America is overpriced too, and you're not actually getting a better overall experience for that money. If it were an extremely safe, clean, and well-managed country, then it'd make sense for the cost-of-living to be high, but it isn't: gun violence is an epidemic, environmental regulations are being gutted, and the political leadership is utterly incompetent. And don't get me started on what an utter disaster the healthcare system is.
    - sbalea 7y ago
      It's accurate. Just got back from spending a few weeks at my dad's country house that's wired with 940/450mbps fiber. No problems remote working from there, except, of course, time zone differences. Here's the ISP link, in Romanian unfortunately: https://www.digiromania.ro/servicii/internet/internet-fix/fiberlink-1000 https://www.digiromania.ro/servicii/internet/internet-fix/fi.... The price is 40 Lei / month, which is approximately $9.5 at current exchange rates.
w1nst0nsm1th 7y ago
We could also say that about American healthcare system or how the life expectency is greater in cuba than it is in the US.

tyri_kai_psomi 7y ago

This is a common misunderstanding I see repeated a lot. The idea isn't unshackling big corporations, it's about unshackling small to medium sized businesses and entrepreneurs. Big corps actually love regulations for the barriers to entry they create, and most of them already have a whole host of regulatory compliance teams armed and ready to dissect the next big regulation that comes. > Americans get stuck with slow and expensive service that becomes relatively worse comparing to other western countries. Internet speeds in most suburban, and urban locations in the US have dramatically increased as of late due to increased threat of competition (namely Google Fiber, which prompted AT&T to start heavily developing Fiber, which prompted the Spectrums of the world to increase speeds) and could be further accelerated by deregulation. Regulations are actually the primary reason that keeps cable companies in their monopolistic/oligarlistic positions. As far as I am aware, the only western countries that have surpassed the US in internet speeds and stability for the majority of its populace are actually east, in countries like S.Korea and Japan. Interestingly enough, Japan is mostly voluntarily self regulated.

minikites 7y ago
>Big corps actually love regulations for the barriers to entry they create, and most of them already have a whole host of regulatory compliance teams armed and ready to dissect the next big regulation that comes. So then why do big corporations spend so much time and money lobbying against regulation?
- jtc331 7y ago
  It’s more nuanced than either of these ways of putting it. They lobby for specific regulation packages that work well for keeping competitors out. Regulation does set up barriers to entry, generally by definition. Needing to have lawyers e during compliance etc. is expensive. So $BIGCORP’s ideal position is regulation that they can absorb easily but smaller competitors can’t.
- pixl97 7y ago
  And I will ask, why do big corporations spend so much time and money lobbying for regulations that benefit them?
rsynnott 7y ago
So, on the high end, the US is fine, and thus is does fairly well on mean speeds (top 10 on some metrics). However, if your internet in the US is bad, it's often really, _really_ bad. In areas without competition, providers still sometimes use ADSL1! (Max 8 down, <1 up, if you're lucky). In general, the tendency in most European countries has been to force wholesaling and/or LLU, and set minimum standards for both; this has generally at least wiped out ADSL1. The FCC is somewhat lighter touch.
- tompccs 7y ago
  Some of the problems are unique to America - for instance, states each have their own regulations, as well as federal ones, which makes nationwide roll-out far costlier. You also have way more geographic concentration of homes in Europe, which makes the ROI for roll-out over a particular area way better. UK's utilities are generally quite good (despite grumbling), which I think is because regulators focus on creating frictionless marketplaces - ie, easy to switch, providers can't obfuscate costs, proliferation of comission-based switching services.
  - rsynnott 7y ago
    I don't think the "US is big" argument really works when it comes to forcing telcos to get rid of their 20th century DSLAMs. Like, obviously ideally they'd be upgrading to something semi-modern, but even swapping out the last of the ADSL1 for ADSL2+, like it was 2006, would be an improvement.
- merb 7y ago
  well is ADSL1 that bad? in most cases (non video on demand) bandwidth is never the problem. no matter how good your bandwidth is as soon as the latency is bad, it won't get better.
  - rsynnott 7y ago
    Yes, ADSL1 is that bad. 8Mbit/sec is the best case, but closer to 1 or 2 is common depending on distance from exchange. About a 30ms latency penalty, IIRC.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
peteradio 7y ago
I don't think its useful to say big corps vs small/medium corps without specifying industry.
mobilefriendly 7y ago
I live in a DC exurb and literally do not have land-based internet access at home. The US broadband regime is a massive failure. It delivers neither high speeds nor universal access.
mannykannot 7y ago
> Big corps actually love regulations for the barriers to entry they create... When they can get regulations that have that effect, then they are indeed in favor of them, but in this case, Boeing was doing all it could to avoid and subvert regulation in its haste to catch up with its competitor.
pjkundert 7y ago
It astonishes me that so few HNers have (evidently) tried to start businesses. The staggering regulatory, tax and accounting burden that small business are groaning under is incomprehensible, unless you've experienced it. I'm a Canadian, in a super-simple business (no payroll, no significant hardward stock) and we are forced to spend double-digit percentages of our gross income just to stay "compliant" with regulations -- and our big, national-level accounting firm is still not certain that we are! In my opinion, any small business owner that thinks they are complying with regulations is probably deluding themselves; one false step, one "investigation" by tax or regulatory authorities (of, if they get on the bad side of someone in these offices) -- and they are toast. So, before you go about chanting in the streets for more regulation, think about who you're hurting. Any company with an office tower, with several floors of lawyers and accountants is laughing at you, for being a "useful idiot", working on their behalf. They can trivially comply. Because, remember -- they wrote the legislation. Your esteemed member of parliament or congress person doesn't write legislation. At best, they might adjust it after it gets dropped on their desk. The lobbyist, and the corporate lawyers and accountants who oversee them, wrote it, and gave it to your legislator.
- throwing_shade 7y ago
  It astonishes me the amount of HNers that think their _personal anecdote_ is worth anything. Here is mine: Big corporations fear regulation. I work at a small company and I am very certain I am compliant. I used to work at big company. Wow! That disproves everything you just said, doesn't it?
- jdavis703 7y ago
  I'm an HNer who has started and sold my own businesses, I have family who have founded & operated businesses in highly regulated areas, and I'm an investor in startups. I have also been audited by the IRS (the US tax service). One wrong step does not mean you're toast. It means you need to admit and fix your mistake and make sure it doesn't happen again. I'm sure agencies such as the FAA or DOE might be more of a PITA to deal with. But that's because they're regulating functions that are literally life and death.

StreamBright 7y ago

I think you slightly confuse regulations and enforcement.

ceejayoz 7y ago
Effective regulation requires effective enforcement of regulations.
- StreamBright 7y ago
  Exactly, I think there is nothing wrong with the legislation but many things wrong with the enforcement. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/faa-knew-another-boeing-737-max-malfunction-was-likely-after-lion-air-crash/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/faa-knew-another-boeing-737-max...

dahart 7y ago

Regulatory capture is one term for this unshackling. I was a bit surprised to see how long and detailed Wikipedia’s list of examples of regulatory capture in the U.S. is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture#United_States_examples https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture#United_Stat...

jayess 7y ago

> Just look at what is happening to telecommunication services, with big corporations growing their profits while Americans get stuck with slow and expensive service that becomes relatively worse comparing to other western countries. I get 1 gig internet service for $80 a month in a mid-sized American city in the midwest. No complaints here. The offerings just keep getting better and cheaper.

magduf 7y ago
In places like Romania, you can get internet service for a fraction of that price.
- wlesieutre 7y ago
  I was curious how that compared with prices of other goods/services so I found this: https://checkinprice.com/cost-of-living-in-bucharest-romania/ https://checkinprice.com/cost-of-living-in-bucharest-romania... Monthly public transport ticket 14.55 USD 1 ticket to the movies (adult price) 5.70 USD High speed internet per month 9.50 USD 1 month gym subscription 41.30 USD Assuming that's accurate, other stuff is cheaper than US cities but not by nearly as much as internet service. I could go for a $10/month high speed connection.
  - magduf 7y ago
    Yep, this is exactly my point. A lot of stuff in various European cities isn't cheaper, or not that much cheaper, than internet service, so internet service in America is comparatively overpriced. Of course, everything else in America is overpriced too, and you're not actually getting a better overall experience for that money. If it were an extremely safe, clean, and well-managed country, then it'd make sense for the cost-of-living to be high, but it isn't: gun violence is an epidemic, environmental regulations are being gutted, and the political leadership is utterly incompetent. And don't get me started on what an utter disaster the healthcare system is.
  - sbalea 7y ago
    It's accurate. Just got back from spending a few weeks at my dad's country house that's wired with 940/450mbps fiber. No problems remote working from there, except, of course, time zone differences. Here's the ISP link, in Romanian unfortunately: https://www.digiromania.ro/servicii/internet/internet-fix/fiberlink-1000 https://www.digiromania.ro/servicii/internet/internet-fix/fi.... The price is 40 Lei / month, which is approximately $9.5 at current exchange rates.

w1nst0nsm1th 7y ago

We could also say that about American healthcare system or how the life expectency is greater in cuba than it is in the US.