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Yup, most operating systems have the ability to grant root access, what is your point?

by shkkmo 7y ago

scarface74 7y ago
And it’s been a major catastrophe for the average user for the last 40 years.
- damnyou 7y ago
  And the current situation with iOS is an even bigger catastrophe for society. I don't think the problem is copying per se... the problem is that Apple is just too big, too powerful, to be good for society. Apple should be broken up.
  - zepto 7y ago
    A catastrophe for the average user is a catastrophe for society. Apple has solved that problem and you haven’t articulated what is wrong.
    - damnyou 7y ago
      Average users are not the only people that matter, despite what Robert Bork wants you to think. What is wrong is the concentration of power within a company answerable only to shareholders. Even democratically elected governments need to be heavily scrutinized for abuses of power.
      - zepto 7y ago
        You still haven’t articulated what is wrong. Corporations are answerable to their customers, their shareholders, and the law. Your premise that they are only answerable to their shareholders is simply false. But regardless - you have articulated no catastrophe for society. All you have stated is an ideology about power itself being bad. If you break up all the big US companies, there are plenty of big companies outside the US who will happily take their business and power.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Yes because most people really care about root access. Are you really saying that the current state of PCs and Android to a lesser extent with viruses, ransomware, etc is better for the average user? I download things silly nilly on iOS because I trust the sandbox. I won’t download random crap on my computer. Apple has less than 20% of the mobile phone market.
    - damnyou 7y ago
      How convenient for Apple fans to talk about "profit share" when app stores are discussed and "market share" when antitrust comes up. I'm saying that the "benevolent dictator" model that Apple is following results in a concentration of power that is ipso facto bad for society and that Apple should be broken up. If Apple must survive in its current form it should be placed under democratic control, not under shareholder control, and should be subject to the checks and balances of a judicial system. Ultimately, Apple should not be the only party to have a say in what's allowed on its platforms, just like the president is not the only person to have a say in who's allowed into the country.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        Guess what? Every console maker gets to decide what is allowed on their platform - it’s been that way since the early 80s. Should they be broken up to? And “society” doesn’t care about “openness”. Do you really think most iOS users are worried about not being able to get apps outside of the App Store?
        damnyou 7y ago
        Microsoft should be broken up too, yes. But a phone OS is much more powerful than a console platform. Elizabeth Warren certainly cares about this, thankfully.
- shkkmo 7y ago
  I don't see how you can possibly justify that claim as it seems to be to not only be false, but to be extremely far from being true. I would say that the history of computing over the last 40 years has succeed ONLY because users were able to control their computers, install any software they wanted and grant that software complete control of the computer. If users had spent the last 40 years only able to do "safe" things with their computers, we would have nowhere near the level of innovation we have today and our economic growth would be stunted. It is only in the last ~10 years that OS's that don't have the ability to grant root access have seen real success. Even then, communities invariably spring up that find ways to get the ability to grant root access. Yes, there are very good reasons to be careful about how you design the process of granting root access, but there are also very good reasons to grant that access. I am perfectly fine with the process being arcane, hidden and full of warnings, but it should be doable directly on the device.

Yup, most operating systems have the ability to grant root access, what is your point?

by shkkmo 7y ago

Yup, most operating systems have the ability to grant root access, what is your point?

scarface74 7y ago

And it’s been a major catastrophe for the average user for the last 40 years.

damnyou 7y ago
And the current situation with iOS is an even bigger catastrophe for society. I don't think the problem is copying per se... the problem is that Apple is just too big, too powerful, to be good for society. Apple should be broken up.
- zepto 7y ago
  A catastrophe for the average user is a catastrophe for society. Apple has solved that problem and you haven’t articulated what is wrong.
  - damnyou 7y ago
    Average users are not the only people that matter, despite what Robert Bork wants you to think. What is wrong is the concentration of power within a company answerable only to shareholders. Even democratically elected governments need to be heavily scrutinized for abuses of power.
    - zepto 7y ago
      You still haven’t articulated what is wrong. Corporations are answerable to their customers, their shareholders, and the law. Your premise that they are only answerable to their shareholders is simply false. But regardless - you have articulated no catastrophe for society. All you have stated is an ideology about power itself being bad. If you break up all the big US companies, there are plenty of big companies outside the US who will happily take their business and power.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Yes because most people really care about root access. Are you really saying that the current state of PCs and Android to a lesser extent with viruses, ransomware, etc is better for the average user? I download things silly nilly on iOS because I trust the sandbox. I won’t download random crap on my computer. Apple has less than 20% of the mobile phone market.
  - damnyou 7y ago
    How convenient for Apple fans to talk about "profit share" when app stores are discussed and "market share" when antitrust comes up. I'm saying that the "benevolent dictator" model that Apple is following results in a concentration of power that is ipso facto bad for society and that Apple should be broken up. If Apple must survive in its current form it should be placed under democratic control, not under shareholder control, and should be subject to the checks and balances of a judicial system. Ultimately, Apple should not be the only party to have a say in what's allowed on its platforms, just like the president is not the only person to have a say in who's allowed into the country.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      Guess what? Every console maker gets to decide what is allowed on their platform - it’s been that way since the early 80s. Should they be broken up to? And “society” doesn’t care about “openness”. Do you really think most iOS users are worried about not being able to get apps outside of the App Store?
      - damnyou 7y ago
        Microsoft should be broken up too, yes. But a phone OS is much more powerful than a console platform. Elizabeth Warren certainly cares about this, thankfully.
shkkmo 7y ago
I don't see how you can possibly justify that claim as it seems to be to not only be false, but to be extremely far from being true. I would say that the history of computing over the last 40 years has succeed ONLY because users were able to control their computers, install any software they wanted and grant that software complete control of the computer. If users had spent the last 40 years only able to do "safe" things with their computers, we would have nowhere near the level of innovation we have today and our economic growth would be stunted. It is only in the last ~10 years that OS's that don't have the ability to grant root access have seen real success. Even then, communities invariably spring up that find ways to get the ability to grant root access. Yes, there are very good reasons to be careful about how you design the process of granting root access, but there are also very good reasons to grant that access. I am perfectly fine with the process being arcane, hidden and full of warnings, but it should be doable directly on the device.