4 ms·

I think some of the conclusions of the article put the cart before the horse. The writer mentions a few times that if Asian people are X% of an incoming class a

I think some of the conclusions of the article put the cart before the horse. The writer mentions a few times that if Asian people are X% of an incoming class at e.g. PwC, then of that cohort, about X% should also become partner; but then the author also claims that he doesn't think Asians are intrinsically smarter than other people, just taught to be much better test takers / students. Those two outcomes aren't necessarily contradictory; it could be that focusing too hard on academics causes people to end up in career tracks where they are less suited to the job compared to people who put in less effort but performed similarly. This is actually a noted phenomenon at Google where competitive programming experience correlates negatively with job performance, because by practicing the measure so much, you can display a stronger signal than you actually have (in other words, you can seem better than you are because you are highly practiced at the tests). Also I think the author is off the mark with their generalizations of white people. Almost all of the stereotypes about Asian people also apply to e.g. white software developers.

farazzz 7y ago
> Almost all of the stereotypes about Asian people also apply to e.g. white software developers. The argument is talking about a general stereotype, which means that saying some people don’t fit it is kind of meaningless. Also, White parents are not prohibited from raising their children in an Asian way, and some do. Relevant quote from Amy Chua, the “Tiger Mom”: > I'm using the term "Chinese mother" loosely. I know some Korean, Indian, Jamaican, Irish and Ghanaian parents who qualify too. Conversely, I know some mothers of Chinese heritage, almost always born in the West, who are not Chinese mothers, by choice or otherwise. I'm also using the term "Western parents" loosely. Western parents come in all varieties. https://web.archive.org/web/20120102062419/http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html https://web.archive.org/web/20120102062419/http://online.wsj...
Petrova 7y ago
I actually think the Pwc partner example is a poor one. Not all people that work at Pwc want to become partner as it necessitates 4 months/year of 7 day 94 hour work weeks for 8-12 years. Most people get the brand on their resume and then leave.
deleted 7y ago
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croh 7y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law
lozenge 7y ago
"Being a better test taker" means having the same aptitude as another person but scoring higher. That means that Asians in the incoming class, on average would have lower aptitudes, and therefore poorer outcomes in their career (if that aptitude actually matters to their career).
rdtwo 7y ago
That’s exactly what I was thinking when I read this. Basically 70% of the students that get admitted are Asian means that they are scraping more than the top 3% of Asian students. If the other racial groups are not doing cram school or equivalent test prep the the other students would likely be top 1-2% of their respective racial group. The difference there in just natural ability can be pretty large. That’s why it might seem like the white kids don’t have to do much to succeed where as what happened is you are comparing groups of people with significantly different natural ability due to selection bias.

farazzz 7y ago

> Almost all of the stereotypes about Asian people also apply to e.g. white software developers. The argument is talking about a general stereotype, which means that saying some people don’t fit it is kind of meaningless. Also, White parents are not prohibited from raising their children in an Asian way, and some do. Relevant quote from Amy Chua, the “Tiger Mom”: > I'm using the term "Chinese mother" loosely. I know some Korean, Indian, Jamaican, Irish and Ghanaian parents who qualify too. Conversely, I know some mothers of Chinese heritage, almost always born in the West, who are not Chinese mothers, by choice or otherwise. I'm also using the term "Western parents" loosely. Western parents come in all varieties. https://web.archive.org/web/20120102062419/http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html https://web.archive.org/web/20120102062419/http://online.wsj...

Petrova 7y ago

I actually think the Pwc partner example is a poor one. Not all people that work at Pwc want to become partner as it necessitates 4 months/year of 7 day 94 hour work weeks for 8-12 years. Most people get the brand on their resume and then leave.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

croh 7y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law

lozenge 7y ago

"Being a better test taker" means having the same aptitude as another person but scoring higher. That means that Asians in the incoming class, on average would have lower aptitudes, and therefore poorer outcomes in their career (if that aptitude actually matters to their career).

rdtwo 7y ago

That’s exactly what I was thinking when I read this. Basically 70% of the students that get admitted are Asian means that they are scraping more than the top 3% of Asian students. If the other racial groups are not doing cram school or equivalent test prep the the other students would likely be top 1-2% of their respective racial group. The difference there in just natural ability can be pretty large. That’s why it might seem like the white kids don’t have to do much to succeed where as what happened is you are comparing groups of people with significantly different natural ability due to selection bias.