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It seems like the article ends up a bit focused on the wrong things here and there. Of course Apple is going to build features their customers want and those f

by shkkmo 7y ago

It seems like the article ends up a bit focused on the wrong things here and there. Of course Apple is going to build features their customers want and those feature are going to line up to some degree with what is available on the app store. This, in itself, is not a problem as any IP theft here should be covered under IP laws. The real issue is that when Apple does release an app (especially a paid app like Apple Music), that they don't compete fairly. This happens in three ways which are mentioned in the article: API parity: >> the in-house version often benefits from functionality that outside developers are prohibited from using. Apple Music, for instance, is the only streaming service that is entitled to take full advantage of Siri. Apple says it plans to change that policy in its new operating system, iOS 13. Apple’s walkie-talkie app, which launched after independent apps had proved the appeal of the concept, is the only one that can operate on Apple Watch. Information Parity: >> what makes Apple’s practice different is its access to a trove of data that nobody else has. The App Store, where the original apps were offered and competed for downloads, collects a vast amount of information on which kinds of apps are successful—even monitoring how much time users spend in them. That data is shared widely among leaders at the tech giant and could be used to make strategic decisions on product development Power imbalance and IP lawsuits: >> They generally don’t sue Apple because of the difficulty and expense in fighting the tech giant—and the consequences they might face from being dependent on the platform. You said: > Whether copied or not, I'm extremely skeptical that App Store analytics are influencing OS features. It's never been Apple's style to be analytics-driven. Do you have a basis for this? This seems to be contradicted by this quote: >> That data is shared widely among leaders at the tech giant and could be used to make strategic decisions on product development, said Phillip Shoemaker, who served as Apple’s director of App Store review from 2009 to 2016. “I think Apple gets a lot of inspiration from apps that are on the App Store,” he said.

switz 7y ago
This is a great answer. To echo and add: why can't I open maps links in Google Maps or http links in Google Chrome. Security may be the easy answer, but there's little doubt that there's an imbalance.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  > why can't I open maps links in Google Maps This is what it does on other platforms. Honestly, if you uninstall Maps it should do this on iOS as well instead of asking you to restore the app.
shkkmo 7y ago
There do seem to be a couple of fixes that would go a long way to satisfy anti-trust concerns: 1) Force internal apps (especially paid ones) to use publicly available APIs. 2) Publicly disclose all App Store metrics that aren't strictly limited to security teams within Apple. 3) Insulate the App Store review team and processes from their other business units and setup a independent watch dog to monitor the process and ensure fair enforcement of the rules. Fixing these three things would leave us with just the industry wide problem of the power-imbalance in IP disputes between companies of disparate size.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Force internal apps (especially paid ones) to use publicly available APIs. Does that include apps that use the Secure Enclave?
  - csande17 7y ago
    Sure, they should have to use the Keychain APIs just like everyone else.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      And system programs? Should all apps have root access? Should they all be able to make changes that the settings app can make?
      - csande17 7y ago
        Settings, Phone, SMS, and maybe App Store are probably the only iOS system apps that actually deserve to be special.
        saagarjha 7y ago
        How about apps that serve to be repositories of sensitive information that is disclosed by consent to other apps, such as Health or Wallet?
rgovostes 7y ago
The app usage analytics that Apple might have access to are spelled out here: https://developer.apple.com/app-store-connect/analytics/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store-connect/analytics/ (Edit: and in Settings > Privacy > Analytics.) I could see sales or engagement metrics being used to inform a broad strategy like, "augmented reality apps like Snapchat and Pokemon Go are catching on, let's make an API so more developers can do this." But it's clearly not the case that they're just looking at the top X apps and copying them, right? And when did you _ever_ see iTunes run an A/B test? Generally speaking Apple is a very design- and engineering-driven company. The larger "business" strategic moves, like creating Apple Pay when Venmo and Square Cash exist, or acquiring Beats to compete in music streaming, aren't likely to be well-informed by these high level metrics.
- shkkmo 7y ago
  > The app usage analytics that Apple might have access to are spelled out here: https://developer.apple.com/app-store-connect/analytics/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store-connect/analytics/ Those are the analytics they make available to the developer of an App, about that App. I see nothing there that indicates anything about what Apple collects for internal use. > And when did you _ever_ see iTunes run an A/B test? Generally speaking Apple is a very design- and engineering-driven company. > The larger "business" strategic moves, like creating Apple Pay when Venmo and Square Cash exist, or acquiring Beats to compete in music streaming, aren't likely to be well-informed by these high level metrics. Possibly not, but the smaller decisions about how to build that product almost certainly are. Even if they are not externally doing A/B testing, that doesn't mean they aren't using analytics to inform design decisions.
  - rgovostes 7y ago
    You can view the analytics collected by your iOS device in Settings > Privacy > Analytics. Below each switch there is a link to an explanation of what is collected. (Specifically regarding app usage, not much is explained.) At a quick glance, I cannot see any information about third-party apps being shared in this data set.
GeekyBear 7y ago
>>API parity Generally, an API that Apple is developing gets dogfooded by Apple for at least a year before it is released for public use. Sometimes they decide the API just isn't there yet, like Marzipan, and they put it through another year of revisions and dogfooding before they make it public. Apple has operated this way forever.
- wlesieutre 7y ago
  7 years of Music being the exclusive audio app with Siri support is a particularly crappy example. I'm sure it takes some work on Apple's side to make that work for 3rd parties, but I'm also sure Apple knew that Spotify users (and many other music apps) wanted it and could have done it sooner.
  - GeekyBear 7y ago
    Apple has been adding more domains to the SiriKit API with every iOS update since the API was added in iOS 10. >Apps adopt SiriKit by building an extension that communicates with Siri, even when your app isn’t running. The extension registers with specific domains and intents that it can handle. For example, a messaging app can register to support the Messages domain, and the intent to send a message. https://developer.apple.com/siri/ https://developer.apple.com/siri/ Originally it only supported VoIP calling, Messaging, Payments, Photos, Workouts, Ride booking, Car commands, CarPlay (automotive vendors only), and Restaurant reservations. The next iOS version adds SiriKit support for playing music.
    - shkkmo 7y ago
      So... Apple added support for domains that don't provide them a competitive advantage well before they added support for the domains that do. Is this supposed to make it look better?
      - GeekyBear 7y ago
        Wait, are you trying to claim Apple doesn't have their own entry in any of those domains? Ever heard of FaceTime or iMessage? How about Apple Cash?
scarface74 7y ago
API parity: The last thing you should want as a developer is to use a half baked API that Apple hasn’t dig fooded first. Apple has slowly opened up Siri and it’s opening it up more in iOS 13 specifically for music. Apple is not going to do an Alexa style voice command line. The intents system while more limited is better for most users and developers.
- shkkmo 7y ago
  > The last thing you should want as a developer is to use a half baked API that Apple hasn’t dig fooded first. That is a massive and sweeping generalization. If developers are being put at a competitive disadvantage by not having access to a feature, I'm pretty sure some of them would love to use an unstable API to stay competitive.
  - GeekyBear 7y ago
    Didn't Spotify complain that there wasn't a public API to store music in the local storage of the Apple watch one year and then not make use of it after the API was made public in the next version of the OS?
    - shkkmo 7y ago
      Are you asking me? I don't see your point.
      - saagarjha 7y ago
        Spotify whined about a lack of an API but did nothing when the API was eventually released.
        shkkmo 7y ago
        And how does that have relevance to the question of if developers will use APIs marked as unstable? I ask again, what is your point? Throwing out random facts is not a discussion.

by shkkmo 7y ago

switz 7y ago

This is a great answer. To echo and add: why can't I open maps links in Google Maps or http links in Google Chrome. Security may be the easy answer, but there's little doubt that there's an imbalance.

saagarjha 7y ago
> why can't I open maps links in Google Maps This is what it does on other platforms. Honestly, if you uninstall Maps it should do this on iOS as well instead of asking you to restore the app.

shkkmo 7y ago

There do seem to be a couple of fixes that would go a long way to satisfy anti-trust concerns: 1) Force internal apps (especially paid ones) to use publicly available APIs. 2) Publicly disclose all App Store metrics that aren't strictly limited to security teams within Apple. 3) Insulate the App Store review team and processes from their other business units and setup a independent watch dog to monitor the process and ensure fair enforcement of the rules. Fixing these three things would leave us with just the industry wide problem of the power-imbalance in IP disputes between companies of disparate size.

scarface74 7y ago
Force internal apps (especially paid ones) to use publicly available APIs. Does that include apps that use the Secure Enclave?
- csande17 7y ago
  Sure, they should have to use the Keychain APIs just like everyone else.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    And system programs? Should all apps have root access? Should they all be able to make changes that the settings app can make?
    - csande17 7y ago
      Settings, Phone, SMS, and maybe App Store are probably the only iOS system apps that actually deserve to be special.
      - saagarjha 7y ago
        How about apps that serve to be repositories of sensitive information that is disclosed by consent to other apps, such as Health or Wallet?

rgovostes 7y ago

The app usage analytics that Apple might have access to are spelled out here: https://developer.apple.com/app-store-connect/analytics/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store-connect/analytics/ (Edit: and in Settings > Privacy > Analytics.) I could see sales or engagement metrics being used to inform a broad strategy like, "augmented reality apps like Snapchat and Pokemon Go are catching on, let's make an API so more developers can do this." But it's clearly not the case that they're just looking at the top X apps and copying them, right? And when did you _ever_ see iTunes run an A/B test? Generally speaking Apple is a very design- and engineering-driven company. The larger "business" strategic moves, like creating Apple Pay when Venmo and Square Cash exist, or acquiring Beats to compete in music streaming, aren't likely to be well-informed by these high level metrics.

shkkmo 7y ago
> The app usage analytics that Apple might have access to are spelled out here: https://developer.apple.com/app-store-connect/analytics/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store-connect/analytics/ Those are the analytics they make available to the developer of an App, about that App. I see nothing there that indicates anything about what Apple collects for internal use. > And when did you _ever_ see iTunes run an A/B test? Generally speaking Apple is a very design- and engineering-driven company. > The larger "business" strategic moves, like creating Apple Pay when Venmo and Square Cash exist, or acquiring Beats to compete in music streaming, aren't likely to be well-informed by these high level metrics. Possibly not, but the smaller decisions about how to build that product almost certainly are. Even if they are not externally doing A/B testing, that doesn't mean they aren't using analytics to inform design decisions.
- rgovostes 7y ago
  You can view the analytics collected by your iOS device in Settings > Privacy > Analytics. Below each switch there is a link to an explanation of what is collected. (Specifically regarding app usage, not much is explained.) At a quick glance, I cannot see any information about third-party apps being shared in this data set.

GeekyBear 7y ago

>>API parity Generally, an API that Apple is developing gets dogfooded by Apple for at least a year before it is released for public use. Sometimes they decide the API just isn't there yet, like Marzipan, and they put it through another year of revisions and dogfooding before they make it public. Apple has operated this way forever.

wlesieutre 7y ago
7 years of Music being the exclusive audio app with Siri support is a particularly crappy example. I'm sure it takes some work on Apple's side to make that work for 3rd parties, but I'm also sure Apple knew that Spotify users (and many other music apps) wanted it and could have done it sooner.
- GeekyBear 7y ago
  Apple has been adding more domains to the SiriKit API with every iOS update since the API was added in iOS 10. >Apps adopt SiriKit by building an extension that communicates with Siri, even when your app isn’t running. The extension registers with specific domains and intents that it can handle. For example, a messaging app can register to support the Messages domain, and the intent to send a message. https://developer.apple.com/siri/ https://developer.apple.com/siri/ Originally it only supported VoIP calling, Messaging, Payments, Photos, Workouts, Ride booking, Car commands, CarPlay (automotive vendors only), and Restaurant reservations. The next iOS version adds SiriKit support for playing music.
  - shkkmo 7y ago
    So... Apple added support for domains that don't provide them a competitive advantage well before they added support for the domains that do. Is this supposed to make it look better?
    - GeekyBear 7y ago
      Wait, are you trying to claim Apple doesn't have their own entry in any of those domains? Ever heard of FaceTime or iMessage? How about Apple Cash?

scarface74 7y ago

API parity: The last thing you should want as a developer is to use a half baked API that Apple hasn’t dig fooded first. Apple has slowly opened up Siri and it’s opening it up more in iOS 13 specifically for music. Apple is not going to do an Alexa style voice command line. The intents system while more limited is better for most users and developers.

shkkmo 7y ago
> The last thing you should want as a developer is to use a half baked API that Apple hasn’t dig fooded first. That is a massive and sweeping generalization. If developers are being put at a competitive disadvantage by not having access to a feature, I'm pretty sure some of them would love to use an unstable API to stay competitive.
- GeekyBear 7y ago
  Didn't Spotify complain that there wasn't a public API to store music in the local storage of the Apple watch one year and then not make use of it after the API was made public in the next version of the OS?
  - shkkmo 7y ago
    Are you asking me? I don't see your point.
    - saagarjha 7y ago
      Spotify whined about a lack of an API but did nothing when the API was eventually released.
      - shkkmo 7y ago
        And how does that have relevance to the question of if developers will use APIs marked as unstable? I ask again, what is your point? Throwing out random facts is not a discussion.