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Know how you get a human to believe something? Make them work for the information. The more someone works for information the more likely they are to believe it

Know how you get a human to believe something? Make them work for the information. The more someone works for information the more likely they are to believe it is valid. I think this is why you see modern educated people with such deference to the "experts". They know the hard work and the costs involved in becoming a academic and as such they value that experience with an almost religious fervor.

Lendal 7y ago
Wow. Are you really equating expertise with religious fervor? The anti-expertise movement is what I would describe as religious fervor, not the other way round.
- fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
  Real expertise isn't a problem. A expert plumber is shown to be so by his actions. Nobody would install a leaky faucet and be able to call himself an expert. An expert psychologist for example? Her patients can remain depressed, mutilate themselves, kill themselves and even kill others and yet she will remain an "expert" mostly on the basis that she was educated at a place that similarly ineffective experts have claimed is a good place for a psychologist to come from. I suppose the trouble is experts by education got lumped in by experts by results at some point down the line.
- cat199 7y ago
  here, have some economics experts: https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/economy/view/ https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/economy/view/ https://www.cato.org/research/growth-development https://www.cato.org/research/growth-development how big is the middle part of the venn diagram here? being skeptical of domain-experts is only 'religious fervor' if the field is cut-and-dried. many aren't
  - Lendal 7y ago
    Let me guess. You cherry-picked some cases where experts were wrong. Am I right? Here, read this: https://www.amazon.com/Death-Expertise-Campaign-Established-Knowledge-dp-0190865970/dp/0190865970/ref=mt_paperback https://www.amazon.com/Death-Expertise-Campaign-Established-... I don't have time for this.
    - cat199 7y ago
      cherry picked? yes and no. These are both hugely influential policy think tanks which hire experts. They both have hugely differing views on the economy. Or is providing evidence to support a claim now 'cherry picking' to be dismissed? And if so, aren't you proving my point?
dredmorbius 7y ago
Tying the information to their personal identity and/or local social structure seems far more effective. The beliefs people seem to hold to most strongly, in the face of all evidence, are those that form their identity. The Dust Bowl farmer, who is a farmer, owns a farm, has a mortgage on the farm, has a family on the farm, and when the water dries up and the soil blows away doesn't know how to do anything else but farm all that much harder. As an example -- the reference is one of the statements from a farmer faced with just that situation, and may explain a number of phenomena, including a pathological case of sunk-cost determinism. What's your evidence that working for information helps with convincing? Because there's at least some evidence (above) that the exact opposite is true. Belief transcends all evidence and experience, or cost, including farm, family, and life.
- fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
  >What's your evidence that working for information helps with convincing? I can't say I had any hard evidence while I wrote that. I admit it's more of an observation from my experience. That said there this study[0] seems to suggest a mechanism whereby this effect could occur. Other ideas like the suck cost fallacy and effort heuristic seem to confirm that this effect has been noticed by others on some level. [0]https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2012-08696-001 https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2012-08696-001
  - dredmorbius 7y ago
    Thanks, though I don't think that's clear support (interesting research, all the same). A study of concept/belief fixity and dynamics associated with those would be interesting. If difficult to design.

Lendal 7y ago

Wow. Are you really equating expertise with religious fervor? The anti-expertise movement is what I would describe as religious fervor, not the other way round.

fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
Real expertise isn't a problem. A expert plumber is shown to be so by his actions. Nobody would install a leaky faucet and be able to call himself an expert. An expert psychologist for example? Her patients can remain depressed, mutilate themselves, kill themselves and even kill others and yet she will remain an "expert" mostly on the basis that she was educated at a place that similarly ineffective experts have claimed is a good place for a psychologist to come from. I suppose the trouble is experts by education got lumped in by experts by results at some point down the line.
cat199 7y ago
here, have some economics experts: https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/economy/view/ https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/economy/view/ https://www.cato.org/research/growth-development https://www.cato.org/research/growth-development how big is the middle part of the venn diagram here? being skeptical of domain-experts is only 'religious fervor' if the field is cut-and-dried. many aren't
- Lendal 7y ago
  Let me guess. You cherry-picked some cases where experts were wrong. Am I right? Here, read this: https://www.amazon.com/Death-Expertise-Campaign-Established-Knowledge-dp-0190865970/dp/0190865970/ref=mt_paperback https://www.amazon.com/Death-Expertise-Campaign-Established-... I don't have time for this.
  - cat199 7y ago
    cherry picked? yes and no. These are both hugely influential policy think tanks which hire experts. They both have hugely differing views on the economy. Or is providing evidence to support a claim now 'cherry picking' to be dismissed? And if so, aren't you proving my point?

dredmorbius 7y ago

Tying the information to their personal identity and/or local social structure seems far more effective. The beliefs people seem to hold to most strongly, in the face of all evidence, are those that form their identity. The Dust Bowl farmer, who is a farmer, owns a farm, has a mortgage on the farm, has a family on the farm, and when the water dries up and the soil blows away doesn't know how to do anything else but farm all that much harder. As an example -- the reference is one of the statements from a farmer faced with just that situation, and may explain a number of phenomena, including a pathological case of sunk-cost determinism. What's your evidence that working for information helps with convincing? Because there's at least some evidence (above) that the exact opposite is true. Belief transcends all evidence and experience, or cost, including farm, family, and life.

fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
>What's your evidence that working for information helps with convincing? I can't say I had any hard evidence while I wrote that. I admit it's more of an observation from my experience. That said there this study[0] seems to suggest a mechanism whereby this effect could occur. Other ideas like the suck cost fallacy and effort heuristic seem to confirm that this effect has been noticed by others on some level. [0]https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2012-08696-001 https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2012-08696-001
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  Thanks, though I don't think that's clear support (interesting research, all the same). A study of concept/belief fixity and dynamics associated with those would be interesting. If difficult to design.