6 ms·

Good riddance. It only took 16 years longer than it should have. A secret government list that the public can't audit, has no means of due process, and prevents

by yardie 7y ago

Good riddance. It only took 16 years longer than it should have. A secret government list that the public can't audit, has no means of due process, and prevents you from going about your life has no business in a free society.

cies 7y ago
Has violating the constitution stopped them, ever? I think they'll just hide it a bit deeper/ deny its existence a bit longer.
- yardie 7y ago
  That may be the case. But they can no longer use it to deny you from traveling. It would become fairly obvious there is a list when you go to board and find out you can't by all the airlines.
  - bilbo0s 7y ago
    No, but the airlines can just not sell you the ticket. This just pushes the watchlist into the private sector. Airlines who fly persons A, or B, or C will be subject to additional insurance premium X. So guess what will happen? Just as bars, and restaurants have a list of people they don't let in anymore, the same will manifest itself with airlines. As soon as you present your ID, you'll be turned away by the airline's computer. This is kind of the issue, the Constitution only really protects you from the government.
    - yardie 7y ago
      > the Constitution only really protects you from the government. And that is why it's important to have those checks and balances, make sure they are followed, and enforced by the law. If the government wants to place you on a no-fly list then they should have a good reason why with evidence to back that reasoning.
auiya 7y ago
It doesn't mean the list is going away, it just means people proven to be US citizens will be expunged (rightfully so). Anyone NOT proven to be US citizens (and located outside the US), and thus not protected by US Constitutional rights will likely remain on the list.
- Falling3 7y ago
  Non-citizens are afforded some Constitutional protections. As far as I know, there is a precedent for due process being one of them.
  - auiya 7y ago
    Only while located on US soil (or certain extensions such as US-flagged ships, embassies, military bases, etc...). Outside the US, they're not.
- wool_gather 7y ago
  Non-citizens are not excluded from the U.S. Constitution or the Bill of Rights; for example, protections around criminal prosecution (the Fifth Amendment) apply to anyone in the U.S., whatever their citizenship. Non-citizen residents also get representation in Congress.
  - auiya 7y ago
    You are correct, edited to include foreign-based establishment.
  - bluthru 7y ago
    >Non-citizen residents also get representation in Congress. This creates bad incentives. Why would we allow foreigners to influence congress?
    - tjohns 7y ago
      Because they live in the US, and therefore by law should have representation. (Note that they still can't vote, so the influence is limited.) Permanent residency is very much a thing allowed by law. Dismissing them as foreigners is a bit harsh, when some of them have been in the US longer (and legally) than anywhere else in their lives.

by yardie 7y ago

cies 7y ago

Has violating the constitution stopped them, ever? I think they'll just hide it a bit deeper/ deny its existence a bit longer.

yardie 7y ago
That may be the case. But they can no longer use it to deny you from traveling. It would become fairly obvious there is a list when you go to board and find out you can't by all the airlines.
- bilbo0s 7y ago
  No, but the airlines can just not sell you the ticket. This just pushes the watchlist into the private sector. Airlines who fly persons A, or B, or C will be subject to additional insurance premium X. So guess what will happen? Just as bars, and restaurants have a list of people they don't let in anymore, the same will manifest itself with airlines. As soon as you present your ID, you'll be turned away by the airline's computer. This is kind of the issue, the Constitution only really protects you from the government.
  - yardie 7y ago
    > the Constitution only really protects you from the government. And that is why it's important to have those checks and balances, make sure they are followed, and enforced by the law. If the government wants to place you on a no-fly list then they should have a good reason why with evidence to back that reasoning.

auiya 7y ago

It doesn't mean the list is going away, it just means people proven to be US citizens will be expunged (rightfully so). Anyone NOT proven to be US citizens (and located outside the US), and thus not protected by US Constitutional rights will likely remain on the list.

Falling3 7y ago
Non-citizens are afforded some Constitutional protections. As far as I know, there is a precedent for due process being one of them.
- auiya 7y ago
  Only while located on US soil (or certain extensions such as US-flagged ships, embassies, military bases, etc...). Outside the US, they're not.
wool_gather 7y ago
Non-citizens are not excluded from the U.S. Constitution or the Bill of Rights; for example, protections around criminal prosecution (the Fifth Amendment) apply to anyone in the U.S., whatever their citizenship. Non-citizen residents also get representation in Congress.
- auiya 7y ago
  You are correct, edited to include foreign-based establishment.
- bluthru 7y ago
  >Non-citizen residents also get representation in Congress. This creates bad incentives. Why would we allow foreigners to influence congress?
  - tjohns 7y ago
    Because they live in the US, and therefore by law should have representation. (Note that they still can't vote, so the influence is limited.) Permanent residency is very much a thing allowed by law. Dismissing them as foreigners is a bit harsh, when some of them have been in the US longer (and legally) than anywhere else in their lives.