12 ms·

Here in the Netherlands, they tend to kick the mother out of hospital as soon as feasible after the birth (typically after one night, or even on the same day),

• harperlee 7y ago
  For comparison purposes: in France, you stat 2-3 days after birth at the hospital, then a midwife visits you 1 to 3 times at home, complemented with “PMI”: nearby newborn centres where you can go for free to get tutoring, support, fever checkups, vaccines, etc. Also the mother gets some followup in the next 6 weeks.
• etaioinshrdlu 7y ago
  That's kind of heartwarming to read.
• kbouck 7y ago
  > she'll do household chores for you (such as clothes washing, vacuuming, washing up, etc.) and maybe even entertain any older children or go grocery shopping Our kraamzorg nurse even cooked us meals! She also taught us a lot of techniques on how to get the infant to sleep. My wife looks back very fondly to the first post-natal week and the kraamzorg was a big reason. Having someone nearby who's been there before is a big stress relief for first-time parents who are full of questions and concerns that first week.
• techstrategist 7y ago
  Our kraamzorg experience is one of the reasons I will likely never return to the US from Holland. The amount of care that society here puts into practically solving problems, while maybe not sufficient for every societal ill, is incredible here.
  • jbverschoor 7y ago
    Yeah that's what you think.. and also what I used to think.
    • lvh 7y ago
      Could you elaborate why you think GP is incorrect?
    • techstrategist 7y ago
      There are plenty of problems that aren't solved, I'd be interested if you would like to point out some?
• tristanperry 7y ago
  Just to clarify that - having had a baby in the UK in the past 3 months - what you say isn't correct (at least for England and Wales; I can't comment on Scotland and NI but I very much doubt they have different systems). Mothers are frequently discharged from hospital the same day, or the following day. My wife had some (relatively minor) complications and thus had a 2 day stay. This is longer than average. Even mothers who had C-sections (i.e. major abdominal surgery) seem to stay <= 3 days, unless there's bigger complications. Once home, the mother's 'midwife' will make home visits 2-4 times in the first week before 'passing' the care onto a 'health visitor'. They will also visit at home (1-2 times a week) for the next few weeks, before this becomes an at-clinic care. There's also 'infant feeding nurses' (i.e. breastfeeding support) as needed, although this one does vary per area. So it's no-where near the Netherlands level of care (having someone do the chores those first few weeks would have been very useful!), but it is definitely not the case that "you're on your own" after leaving hospital after a multi-day stay.
  • dazzawazza 7y ago
    That sounds almost identical to my (English) experience except I did it 25 years ago. In fact that's pretty much what happened when my baby brother was born 35 years ago.
  • arethuza 7y ago
    Maybe worth noting that Scotland has had baby boxes for a while now: https://www.mygov.scot/baby-box/ https://www.mygov.scot/baby-box/
  • antidaily 7y ago
    Discharged the same day?!
    • tristanperry 7y ago
      It's from 5 years ago, but I don't think much has changed since https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/aug/29/new-mothers-discharged-hospital-too-early-nhs https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/aug/29/new-mot... was published. I should add that, from what I've heard, same day discharges is much more common for the second (/third/etc) child compared to having a first.
• isolli 7y ago
  This is why my wife almost died in the US. We left the hospital after two days, and were left to fend for ourselves. We were so busy with the newborn that we didn't notice that my wife was developing an infection. By the time she fainted from a sudden high fever, it turned out she had a uterine infection. And after lying on a stretcher in the ER for 14 hours with not so much as a glass of water, she had a full-blown septicemia. None of this would have happened with midwife visits at home (like we had in Germany for the second child). They check on the mother as well as the baby.
  • nervousvarun 7y ago
    And you likely paid more overall for this "service" as well!
    • isolli 7y ago
      We paid as much as the Duchess of Cambridge, who also gave birth to her first child around that time!
    • bch 7y ago
      NDaaS? (Not Dying...)
• flarg 7y ago
  From personal experience in the UK, you're kicked out of hospital after a few days during which you received amateur advice from nursing assistants and a final discharge check for the baby if the doctor is available (if not then you have to go back for the discharge check). Back home there are irregular visits from a nurse who usually writes random statements in the a red log book but aside from that you're on your own. If you have time for the internet you might learn about why a baby doesn't latch and then maybe find a private lactation nurse who may or may not give you useful advice. Maybe one of them has heard of tongue tie because the NHS doesn't believe in it (and they're not allowed to support anything but breast feeding...)
  • thom 7y ago
    Sorry for your experience. We've actually had a decent interactions with breast-feeding support workers (and local groups). Our first had a tongue-tie which we had cut on the NHS, though it was very difficult to get them to give us any firm advice on it either way. It's sad if different trusts have such varied support. I do agree that the health visitors probably end up being more hassle and causing more stress than they're worth. By the time of our third kid we just smiled, nodded and lied our way through every interaction until they went away.
    • legooolas 7y ago
      > It's sad if different trusts have such varied support. Different trusts in the NHS have wildly differing support, policies, physio, mobile apps, leaflets and documentation, etc etc. It makes the "N" in NHS a bit odd, and surely is tremendously inefficient! (Having said that, and having recently had a baby the NHS and their staff have all been amazing!)
  • stuartbman 7y ago
    Not to disagree with your experience, but to clarify. Postnatal checks by the doctor may be performed up to 72 hours after birth [1]. The reason that the doctor might not be available, is because they may be attending a neonatal arrest call, which can require prolonged ventilatory assistance for the newborn by the doctor. In that setting, hospitals might want to make empty beds to enable more mothers to safely give birth in the hospital of their choice. In an ideal world, there would be more beds. Finally, sorry to hear about your experience of tongue tie. This is also mentioned in link [1], so it's definitely not something that the 'NHS doesn't believe in'. [1] https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg37/chapter/1-Recommendations#maintaining-infant-health https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg37/chapter/1-Recommendati...
• gdfasfklshg4 7y ago
  OTH the father had to until this year go back to work the next day...
  • SJSque 7y ago
    True. In my haste, I neglected to mention that until recently the Netherlands has had one of stingiest paternity/partner leave policies in Europe. It used to be (roughly speaking) one or two days, as of this year it is one week, and next year it will become six weeks. Too late for me though! In my case, I saved up some of my holiday days to be able to take time off work (fortunately you tend to get a few months' warning before a baby appears in your life).
    • gdfasfklshg4 7y ago
      > fortunately you tend to get a few months' warning before a baby appears in your life Yes but the baby can come anytime within a period of about a five weeks and be within the "normal" period. You need an understanding employer to take two weeks holiday "sometime in the next 5 weeks".
      • mcv 7y ago
        You do, and any employer who won't allow it is being an ass and should get ignored. Your family and your baby is more important than your manager's power trip.
  • mcv 7y ago
    Any responsible father takes two weeks off after the birth of a child. I'm glad it's mandatory now, but even before, it shouldn't have stopped any new father from spending those first two weeks with his family. It's a very important period where you learn how to take care of the new baby, bond with it, and need to take care of your wife who quite likely is in no condition to do anything other than recover.
    • alistairSH 7y ago
• tralarpa 7y ago
  > credited for the Netherlands' low infant mortality rate Wasn't Netherlands birth mortality rate actually higher when compared to neighbor countries because of the tradition of giving birth at home (which is not dangerous in itself but it means that valuable time is lost in the case the mother has to go to a hospital and the doctors there have to first sync up with the pre-natal nurse)?
  • SJSque 7y ago
    Could be. I'm not an expert (I haven't even looked up the statistics), and I suspect that neither was the person who I heard crediting the kraamzorg system for the low infant mortality rate. I certainly get the impression that giving birth at home is quite 'trendy' here, but my wife and I decided that there was no way that we were going to opt for that. My wife would much rather give birth in a building full of experts and specialised equipment than in the "relaxed, familiar atmosphere" of home.
    • markus92 7y ago
      Not really trendy, but more the way it has always been done. Childbirth isn't a disease and shouldn't be treated as such, is the rationale behind it.
      • lotsofpulp 7y ago
        Seems like a silly rationale to me. It’s not like evolution has optimized bodies to be amazing at childbirth. There are many possible complications that modern equipment and expertise can help with that aren’t available at home. You can do the same thing you do at home, with the security of having medical care immediately if things get complicated.
        • daliusd 7y ago
          Despite all modern equipment and expertise „Intrapartum and neonatal mortality was 0.15% for planned home births, 0.18% for planned hospital births“ (source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5465453/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5465453/). Something to think about. Disclaimer: my wife gave birth at home (but not in Netherlands)
• netjiro 7y ago
  > The system works really well, and I've heard it be credited for the Netherlands' low infant mortality rate. Do not agree. Netherlands has remarkably poor statistics when accounting for total incidents and outcome from the months before and after births. They have more than double the shit rate compared to other high quality healthcare western European countries. Anecdotally I've heard this attributed to the custom of having close to 30%(?) of births done at home, which is an outlier and increases risks of poor outcome when complications arise. But parent's notes on assistance post natal is probably correct and a very good thing.
• cmrdporcupine 7y ago
  You can get midwife care here in Canada, but it's something you sign up for, are not guaranteed to get, is more geared towards people seeking home or 'natural' births, varies in structure and quality from province to province, city to city, and like everything with our health care system is constantly under creeping threat from politicians of the right wing bent. In Ontario more funding was recently slashed, I believe. That said we had the same midwife for both our children and she was amazing. Like family. Didn't do chores for us though :-)
• kalleboo 7y ago
  To add to the national comparisons - here in Japan the mother typically stays in hospital for a week to recover while getting help learning to feed, bathe and change the child. My daughter was born via C-section and so they kept my wife for 10 days. You can get a paid upgrade to a family room if you wish. The tradition is then for the mother to stay at her parents house for a month to get help from grandma when she's learning the ropes (my wife lasted a week). I couldn't imagine getting kicked out the same day. What a load of work! Especially if the father is expected to go straight back to work (as another comment said was typical before this year)
  • swish_bob 7y ago
    Paternity leave in the UK has been two weeks since at least my eldest was born, 15 years ago.
    • kalleboo 7y ago
      Ah sorry I was referring to the Netherlands
• avar 7y ago
  > Here in the Netherlands, they tend to kick the mother out of hospital as soon as feasible after the birth (typically after one night, or even on the same day)[...] For our two (both born in Amsterdam) we were out of the hospital 3-4 hours after birth in both cases (both induced, and with epidural). They do the bare minimal to make sure you're not actively bleeding (and stitching), measure the baby and then you're out. When you get home the kraamzorg is there waiting for you. I think it's a much better system. You don't need hospital services (surgery, anesthesia etc.) anymore. Why would you want to stay in a hospital?
• r00fus 7y ago
  This is so amazing! Here in the US, when we had our twins, we knew that we would need a similar service - we hired a night nanny (note: just for nights, not daytime). Price was high, but our firstborn was difficult we knew we were out of our depth with upcoming twins (not to mention actually taking care of the older kid). The night nanny did not monitor medical though. Family is a great ideal, but often grandma doesn't remember how to take care the newborn, or help the mom.
• lqet 7y ago
  > and, as far as I know, it's always a she As I have learned a few months ago when our midwife came by daily the first 2 weeks after our baby was born (in Germany, healthcare insurance will pay for daily midwife visits the first 10 days after you are out of the hospital, and for additional 16 times in the first 6 weeks) there are exactly 4 male midwifes in Germany, which is roughly 0.017%. I get it, however. Our midwife had 2 children of her own, and it is extremely comfortable to know that the midwife already went through all of that herself. There are some things that cannot be taught, and giving birth is definitely one of them. > Here in the Netherlands, they tend to kick the mother out of hospital as soon as feasible after the birth (typically after one night, or even on the same day) My wife stayed in the hospital for 4 nights (she was definitely not able to go home sooner) and it was a very pleasant experience. She basically stayed in her bed undisturbed with the baby and if she needed anything (including some time alone) the nurses where there. We were very pleasantly surprised as we both heard horror stories from our own parents who gave birth in the late 80ies (in Germany and Switzerland) when it was uncommon to put the baby in the same room as the mother. Apparently, breast feeding was often supervised in the hospital back then and the baby was weighted before and after to check the amount of milk it drank. PS: We were extremely grateful that we had the midwife available 24/7 the first weeks. There is just so much going on, both with the child and the mother's body. We had many panic moments where we called our midwife, and she usually came by the same day or calmed us down via phone. However, I don't think a service like that is absolutely necessary if you have family support and if the child is healthy. As we later found out, almost everything we asked the midwife or were concerned about could've been answered by our own parents. In retrospect, we were absolutely clueless.