4 ms·

It is rooted way way way back to the Puritan ideal of doing the hard work yourself and not needing to rely on anyone else to succeed.

by cjslep 7y ago

alkonaut 7y ago
One big difference to the scandinavian mindset is that children are much more seen as individuals than dependents belonging to their parents. If it's unacceptable that a child is less successful because its parents did not work hard (or any other reason they aren't well off) then a lot of social welfare programs will follow naturally. For example, having time with parents (parental leave) is a right of the child, not a luxury for the parents. In that perspective it's much harder to frame tax-financed parental leave as a handout to the parent. Without it, some children would miss out on something through no fault of their own.
- thefz 7y ago
  On the other hand, I've had female coworkers carefully plan pregnancies to chain the maximum amount of paid leave. Others taking as much paid leave (100% pay, then diminishing, then almost nothing) as possible and then resigning on the first day coming back to work. It's a double-edged sword, in most cases.
  - alkonaut 7y ago
    Resigning on parental leave is probably common, but on the other hand the paid leave was at least not paid by the company. And at that point the company will most likely have a trained temp, so seen that way it's not a bad time to quit (although you could of course have given that notice a while before returning). Maximizing the use of paid parental leave I see as pretty much a given. I don't think many see it as the most important factor for planning a pregnancy, but I absolutely want to maximize the amount of paid leave I can take. My kids are 6 and 8 and I still do multiple weeks of parental leave per year. Typically doubling my summer holiday from 4 to 8 weeks or similar. It's a benefit I have paid for many times over. There have been suggestions though that this is an unncessarily luxury and it would be better (for children) if parents had to use the majority of the parental leave before age 3 instead. I kind of agree.
    - thefz 7y ago
      I'm on the opposite side on this issue, I don't like publicly funded leave nor benefits and as a taxpayer this kind of opportunistic behavior further cements my view that the state should not spend public money into helping parents.
      - alkonaut 7y ago
        > spend public money into helping parents. For these policies to be even remotely understandable I think the key is as I said to fundamentally see it as money spent towards children, not parents.
        thefz 7y ago
        Fine, but downvotes for a civil discussion?
      - alistairSH 7y ago
        Does that logic extend to all public assistance? All systems will be gamed to some extent, even corporate welfare and programs available to professionals (mortgage income tax deduction in the US, EV car rebates in the US, etc). I'd much prefer to see a program like "babies in boxes" that extends to all families than programs like a massive EV subsidy given to rich dentists and VCs who don't need the money.
  - ptah 7y ago
    i guess they are just maximising what they can get out of the system, which is far less than if the system was setup with above-mentioned scandinavian mindset
  - jasonlotito 7y ago
    > On the other hand, I've had female coworkers carefully plan pregnancies to chain the maximum amount of paid leave. So, taking the maximum amount of paid leave they are allowed. How is this an issue? Do you take less pay than offered? Please explain how maximizing your benefits if wrong.

It is rooted way way way back to the Puritan ideal of doing the hard work yourself and not needing to rely on anyone else to succeed.

by cjslep 7y ago

It is rooted way way way back to the Puritan ideal of doing the hard work yourself and not needing to rely on anyone else to succeed.

alkonaut 7y ago

One big difference to the scandinavian mindset is that children are much more seen as individuals than dependents belonging to their parents. If it's unacceptable that a child is less successful because its parents did not work hard (or any other reason they aren't well off) then a lot of social welfare programs will follow naturally. For example, having time with parents (parental leave) is a right of the child, not a luxury for the parents. In that perspective it's much harder to frame tax-financed parental leave as a handout to the parent. Without it, some children would miss out on something through no fault of their own.

thefz 7y ago
On the other hand, I've had female coworkers carefully plan pregnancies to chain the maximum amount of paid leave. Others taking as much paid leave (100% pay, then diminishing, then almost nothing) as possible and then resigning on the first day coming back to work. It's a double-edged sword, in most cases.
- alkonaut 7y ago
  Resigning on parental leave is probably common, but on the other hand the paid leave was at least not paid by the company. And at that point the company will most likely have a trained temp, so seen that way it's not a bad time to quit (although you could of course have given that notice a while before returning). Maximizing the use of paid parental leave I see as pretty much a given. I don't think many see it as the most important factor for planning a pregnancy, but I absolutely want to maximize the amount of paid leave I can take. My kids are 6 and 8 and I still do multiple weeks of parental leave per year. Typically doubling my summer holiday from 4 to 8 weeks or similar. It's a benefit I have paid for many times over. There have been suggestions though that this is an unncessarily luxury and it would be better (for children) if parents had to use the majority of the parental leave before age 3 instead. I kind of agree.
  - thefz 7y ago
    I'm on the opposite side on this issue, I don't like publicly funded leave nor benefits and as a taxpayer this kind of opportunistic behavior further cements my view that the state should not spend public money into helping parents.
    - alkonaut 7y ago
      > spend public money into helping parents. For these policies to be even remotely understandable I think the key is as I said to fundamentally see it as money spent towards children, not parents.
      - thefz 7y ago
        Fine, but downvotes for a civil discussion?
    - alistairSH 7y ago
      Does that logic extend to all public assistance? All systems will be gamed to some extent, even corporate welfare and programs available to professionals (mortgage income tax deduction in the US, EV car rebates in the US, etc). I'd much prefer to see a program like "babies in boxes" that extends to all families than programs like a massive EV subsidy given to rich dentists and VCs who don't need the money.
- ptah 7y ago
  i guess they are just maximising what they can get out of the system, which is far less than if the system was setup with above-mentioned scandinavian mindset
- jasonlotito 7y ago
  > On the other hand, I've had female coworkers carefully plan pregnancies to chain the maximum amount of paid leave. So, taking the maximum amount of paid leave they are allowed. How is this an issue? Do you take less pay than offered? Please explain how maximizing your benefits if wrong.