4 ms·

What practical consequences did Tiananmen Square have? You say it’s why they can’t just march into Hong Kong, but I don’t believe that. They can’t just march in

What practical consequences did Tiananmen Square have? You say it’s why they can’t just march into Hong Kong, but I don’t believe that. They can’t just march into Hong Kong because of the international condemnation that would ensue, and because it would wreck an economically valuable city. Both of those would remain true if Tiananmen Square had never happened. You say it’s a “major thorn” for them today; how? Domestically, it’s like it never happened. Internationally, they happily ignore pressure to do better on human rights. I don’t see any consequences that vaguely resemble what the protestors wanted. The Prague Spring’s reforms were quickly reversed and the country was communist business as usual for decades afterwards. Crediting it for the fall of communism in 1989 seems like quite a stretch; for any successful protest, there will be failed ones that came before and provided influence. Does that mean that all protests are successful by definition when you look at a long enough timeline? Seems like a highly pointless metric if so.

bouncycastle 7y ago
> What practical consequences did Tiananmen Square have? CCP is still grappling with it. Quote "As foundational as the crackdown at Tiananmen may have been to the CCP’s current strength, it remains largely invisible to the people. Despite claiming the moral high ground against what it calls a “counter-revolutionary” rebellion, the Party is still sensitive to the fact that its slaughter of students and laborers put a stain on its legitimacy." https://www.google.com/amp/s/time.com/5600363/china-tiananmen-30-years-later/%3famp=true https://www.google.com/amp/s/time.com/5600363/china-tiananme... Sorry, but you can't just burry a massacre, especially if it's been well documented. > Does that mean that all protests are successful by definition when you look at a long enough timeline? They may also look like separate events on the timeline, but still part of the same overall movement. Change doesn't happen overnight.
- mikeash 7y ago
  That quote is vague fluff, not “practical consequences.” What actual change was brought about by those protests? As far as I can see, there was none: no democratization or other political liberalization happened, just a bunch of dead or disappeared people.
- justicezyx 7y ago
  > it remains largely invisible to the people No, it's certainly not visible to the people. If you are talking about Chinese people, not HK people.
pcwalton 7y ago
> What practical consequences did Tiananmen Square have? It began the process of deterioration of relations between the PRC and the Western democracies, a process that has continued to the present day. People began to realize that China may not liberalize on its own the way Taiwan did—that the government of the PRC is often hostile to liberal democracy. One of the consequences of this realization is in fact these Hong Kong protests. There are numerous other consequences of this cooling in relations too—for example, protectionist tariffs against a country seen as hostile to Western values are easier to sell politically in the West. Tariffs obviously impact China. Tiananmen didn't achieve what the protestors wanted, but it's clearly a significant historical event.

bouncycastle 7y ago

> What practical consequences did Tiananmen Square have? CCP is still grappling with it. Quote "As foundational as the crackdown at Tiananmen may have been to the CCP’s current strength, it remains largely invisible to the people. Despite claiming the moral high ground against what it calls a “counter-revolutionary” rebellion, the Party is still sensitive to the fact that its slaughter of students and laborers put a stain on its legitimacy." https://www.google.com/amp/s/time.com/5600363/china-tiananmen-30-years-later/%3famp=true https://www.google.com/amp/s/time.com/5600363/china-tiananme... Sorry, but you can't just burry a massacre, especially if it's been well documented. > Does that mean that all protests are successful by definition when you look at a long enough timeline? They may also look like separate events on the timeline, but still part of the same overall movement. Change doesn't happen overnight.

mikeash 7y ago
That quote is vague fluff, not “practical consequences.” What actual change was brought about by those protests? As far as I can see, there was none: no democratization or other political liberalization happened, just a bunch of dead or disappeared people.
justicezyx 7y ago
> it remains largely invisible to the people No, it's certainly not visible to the people. If you are talking about Chinese people, not HK people.

pcwalton 7y ago

> What practical consequences did Tiananmen Square have? It began the process of deterioration of relations between the PRC and the Western democracies, a process that has continued to the present day. People began to realize that China may not liberalize on its own the way Taiwan did—that the government of the PRC is often hostile to liberal democracy. One of the consequences of this realization is in fact these Hong Kong protests. There are numerous other consequences of this cooling in relations too—for example, protectionist tariffs against a country seen as hostile to Western values are easier to sell politically in the West. Tariffs obviously impact China. Tiananmen didn't achieve what the protestors wanted, but it's clearly a significant historical event.