> I find these ORM opinions generally coming from someone who is used to, and is proficient in SQL, and only when they have a complex use-case/operation at hand

> I find these ORM opinions generally coming from someone who is used to, and is proficient in SQL, and only when they have a complex use-case/operation at hand. I'm reasonably proficient in SQL. My practical blocker with ORMs in general has been that you still have to understand your application obviously, and you have to understand SQL to fix most things, and now you're adding effectively a new language and framework between them. > I have had great experiences with Django ORM and SQL Alchemy. I think the best ORMs aren't ORMs at all, but larger frameworks like Django and Fails, as you're making the investment to learn that framework anyway. And in fairness, I started with Hibernate which is particularly complex, having its own query language. Many ORMs have gone the no-object route and try to directly represent relational concepts, especially jOOQ[1]. That's smart engineering to recognize that problem and minimize it, but at that point it's less of an ORM and more like numpy for the relational algebra. [1]: http://www.jooq.org/ http://www.jooq.org/