4 ms·

This some great work on tracking down all of these measures to track users. I really hope we get to the point where dumb ads rules the web once more. Hopefully

This some great work on tracking down all of these measures to track users. I really hope we get to the point where dumb ads rules the web once more. Hopefully this results in more than a slap on the wrist, but I doubt it.

intopieces 7y ago
Why should ads rule the web at all? Surely the cleverest engineers to walk the planet can come up with a new way of making money that doesn’t involve psychological manipulation.
- hexadec 7y ago
  I agree with you in theory, but until we can figure out micro-transactional payments that work globally it seems ads are good stepping stone. People want to get paid for work, some users are willing to pay (cash) some with attention to ads. We should not give up our privacy or anonymity for this attention though.
  - tzs 7y ago
    Micro-transaction payments are probably a long way away, for non-tech reasons. Briefly, you might have to deal with collecting and remitting sales taxes or VAT in any jurisdiction in which you have paying readers. Until there is some sort of agreement among the relevant jurisdictions to greatly reduce the pain of this, direct micro-transactions with your site's visitors are likely to be a bureaucratic nightmare.
    - jeremyjh 7y ago
      These platforms already exist. They fail because most people won’t pay for content, full stop.
- tsumnia 7y ago
  I think there are simply engineers that are fine with the current state of things. You mention specifically "come up with a new way of making money"; however, for extrinsically motivated people, why reinvent the wheel? Problem solving can mean thinking up a solution or implementing a solution. In the same vein, there may be engineers that enjoy working on this type of problem - how to identify someone that is actively avoiding you. The current iteration of Do Not Track mentality only makes the problem more interesting by putting up restrictions.
- hobofan 7y ago
  > Surely the cleverest engineers to walk the planet can come up with a new way of making money that doesn’t involve psychological manipulation. If they could, they would've already done so. One of the things "the cleverest engineers to walk the planet" would probably need to do is to increase consumers willingness to pay for good content by a factor of ~10 for e.g. online newspapers with quality journalism to be profitable, which frankly sounds near-impossible.
  - rpastuszak 7y ago
    I disagree, the technical issues are relatively easy to solve, assuming there’s enough budget, buy-in. The issues with these forms of targeting are structural/cultural and AdTech is a surprisingly slow moving ship. Technical issues are mostly used as an excuse.
  - phreack 7y ago
    Not that I think their proposition is better but the Brave people particularly are trying to push a different model with their attention token scheme, so it's not that no one can think of something different, just that it's enormously hard to get people on board when the old advertisers are holding on to everyone using every single way at their disposal, legal or not.
    - brettz 7y ago
      Brave is trying to be the middleman and launching their own ad network. I think browsers forcing a business model onto publishers still isn't the right answer.
  - eitland 7y ago
    > One of the things "the cleverest engineers to walk the planet" would probably need to do is to increase consumers willingness to pay for good content by a factor of ~10 for e.g. online newspapers with quality journalism to be profitable, which frankly sounds near-impossible. After more than two decades newspapers still haven't figured out that even though I want to pay for good journalism I cannot subscribe to every newspaper there is, and I am a user who actively wants to pay. I already voluntarily pay for two newspapers and involuntarily pay for the national news-and-a-little-propaganda service. Oh, and I donate to the Guardian half the time I visit them. If more papers allowed me to pay per view I would likely spend more money on journalism. But I'm not going to have another subscription right now, thanks.
- DaiPlusPlus 7y ago
  Engineers aren’t businesspeople. We’re tools of the businesspeople - we only stick around to do their bidding because they offer us equity.
- paulddraper 7y ago
  > Surely the cleverest engineers...can come up with a new way of making money New ways of building things is the province of engineering. New ways of making money is the province of MBAs. Not that really matters; I doubt you will succeed in replacing ads with something "better".

intopieces 7y ago

Why should ads rule the web at all? Surely the cleverest engineers to walk the planet can come up with a new way of making money that doesn’t involve psychological manipulation.

hexadec 7y ago
I agree with you in theory, but until we can figure out micro-transactional payments that work globally it seems ads are good stepping stone. People want to get paid for work, some users are willing to pay (cash) some with attention to ads. We should not give up our privacy or anonymity for this attention though.
- tzs 7y ago
  Micro-transaction payments are probably a long way away, for non-tech reasons. Briefly, you might have to deal with collecting and remitting sales taxes or VAT in any jurisdiction in which you have paying readers. Until there is some sort of agreement among the relevant jurisdictions to greatly reduce the pain of this, direct micro-transactions with your site's visitors are likely to be a bureaucratic nightmare.
  - jeremyjh 7y ago
    These platforms already exist. They fail because most people won’t pay for content, full stop.
tsumnia 7y ago
I think there are simply engineers that are fine with the current state of things. You mention specifically "come up with a new way of making money"; however, for extrinsically motivated people, why reinvent the wheel? Problem solving can mean thinking up a solution or implementing a solution. In the same vein, there may be engineers that enjoy working on this type of problem - how to identify someone that is actively avoiding you. The current iteration of Do Not Track mentality only makes the problem more interesting by putting up restrictions.
hobofan 7y ago
> Surely the cleverest engineers to walk the planet can come up with a new way of making money that doesn’t involve psychological manipulation. If they could, they would've already done so. One of the things "the cleverest engineers to walk the planet" would probably need to do is to increase consumers willingness to pay for good content by a factor of ~10 for e.g. online newspapers with quality journalism to be profitable, which frankly sounds near-impossible.
- rpastuszak 7y ago
  I disagree, the technical issues are relatively easy to solve, assuming there’s enough budget, buy-in. The issues with these forms of targeting are structural/cultural and AdTech is a surprisingly slow moving ship. Technical issues are mostly used as an excuse.
- phreack 7y ago
  Not that I think their proposition is better but the Brave people particularly are trying to push a different model with their attention token scheme, so it's not that no one can think of something different, just that it's enormously hard to get people on board when the old advertisers are holding on to everyone using every single way at their disposal, legal or not.
  - brettz 7y ago
    Brave is trying to be the middleman and launching their own ad network. I think browsers forcing a business model onto publishers still isn't the right answer.
- eitland 7y ago
  > One of the things "the cleverest engineers to walk the planet" would probably need to do is to increase consumers willingness to pay for good content by a factor of ~10 for e.g. online newspapers with quality journalism to be profitable, which frankly sounds near-impossible. After more than two decades newspapers still haven't figured out that even though I want to pay for good journalism I cannot subscribe to every newspaper there is, and I am a user who actively wants to pay. I already voluntarily pay for two newspapers and involuntarily pay for the national news-and-a-little-propaganda service. Oh, and I donate to the Guardian half the time I visit them. If more papers allowed me to pay per view I would likely spend more money on journalism. But I'm not going to have another subscription right now, thanks.
DaiPlusPlus 7y ago
Engineers aren’t businesspeople. We’re tools of the businesspeople - we only stick around to do their bidding because they offer us equity.
paulddraper 7y ago
> Surely the cleverest engineers...can come up with a new way of making money New ways of building things is the province of engineering. New ways of making money is the province of MBAs. Not that really matters; I doubt you will succeed in replacing ads with something "better".