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The 7 in a bag is the official current standing mandated by TTC (The Tetris Company) and all new Tetris games must adhere to this. The reason is quite simple,

The 7 in a bag is the official current standing mandated by TTC (The Tetris Company) and all new Tetris games must adhere to this. The reason is quite simple, it is absolutely impossible to hit a drought. The maximum number of same pieces you can get in a row is two (unless you count holding a piece) and at worst if you're waiting for a piece is that you might get 12 pieces inbetween. This makes the game quite a bit more predictable and more beginner friendly which is what TTC is going for apparently. In say, classic Tetris (NES) it wasn't uncommon of having a drought for over 20 pieces if not even more. The 7 in a bag enables a lot of different kinds of builds (like All-clears or the Albatross Special and its' variations) which suit PVP Tetris games like Tetris 99 quite well but it's kinda boring when you're playing solo against the game. I personally enjoy the randomizer in Tetris the Absolute: The Grandmaster 2 PLUS (TAP+) and Tetris the Grandmaster 3 Terror Instinct (TGM Ti) because it definitely had an element of surprise without screwing you totally over. I've never actually done the math, but it would be interesting to calculate the success rates of different build strategies in the 7 in a bag games. Anyways, I'm rambling on. Tetris just always warms my heart :)

dragontamer 7y ago
> more beginner friendly Not necessarily beginner friendly, but more importantly... competitive friendly. Since there's a high amount of determinism between bags, Tetris is a great competitive game. As such, Tetris can be played in an arcade setting without worrying about "bad luck" messing with one player or the other. This has led to the development of many good multiplayer Tetris games, such as Tetris Friends, Tetris Ultimate, Puyo Puyo Tetris, and Tetris 99.
- wodenokoto 7y ago
  Wouldn’t that problem be solved by simply setting both players seed value to the same? I believe the order of balls is the same for both players in bust-a-move, but still the boards will quickly diverge a lot.
  - dragontamer 7y ago
    > Wouldn’t that problem be solved by simply setting both players seed value to the same? Lets say drop 100 through 110 were unlucky SZSZSZSZ pattern. The faster player will come across the "unfortunate" pattern first and then lose. In contrast, the slower player will only be on drop 80. The bag system ensures that high-speed play is possible for both players, and favors the faster player in all cases. A true randomized system would have "unfortunate" patterns which will eventually kill the faster player. ------ With that being said: Tetris Classic competitions seed the two competitors with the same pattern. But similarly, Tetris Classic has no concept of "garbage damage". In Tetris Friends / Puyo Puyo Tetris / etc. etc, you "damage" the opponent by doing a Tetris, or a T-spin (a complicated maneuver). Its actually a very good, very well balanced game (although some would argue that "combos" are a bit strong in the current iteration of the damage formula).
    - defertoreptar 7y ago
      > Lets say drop 100 through 110 were unlucky SZSZSZSZ pattern. The faster player will come across the "unfortunate" pattern first and then lose. In contrast, the slower player will only be on drop 80. Does the faster player get nothing in return for their speed advantage? If so, then shouldn't they just play slower? If not, then aren't they compensated fairly for the risk of running into a difficult sequence earlier in the game?
      - dragontamer 7y ago
        > Does the faster player get nothing in return for their speed advantage? In Guidelines Tetris, you only deal damage if you do a sufficiently complicated maneuver. A Tetris (4-line clear), a T-Spin ("spinning" a T-block into place), or a "Combo" (repeatedly clearing lines non-stop). As such, you only can do a major damage from I-blocks (a 4-line clear / Tetris), or T-blocks (TSpins). No other block in the game can deal major damage by themselves. So the placement of I blocks and T-blocks is fundamental. --------- Also note: Garbage is a "comeback" mechanism: large amounts of garbage "feed" the opponent lines to perform a combo with. If you deal non-lethal damage to the opponent, it is common for the opponent to use the garbage you sent him to "combo" into a large amount of damage back to you. As such: the game becomes more garbage is sent around. There is a chance the opponent can see a 12-combo through the garbage you sent them. Its difficult for the untrained players to see combos, but it definitely comes into play at higher-levels. --------- The current system (including the bag-randomizer) has been carefully balanced between many issues, and playtested for years. Aside from occasional issues (ex: TSpin singles becoming too easy in an early version: leading to the development of "TSpin Minis" to nerf that technique), the overall Tetris Guidelines rules are quite good. I recommend playing a modern competitive version of Tetris and trying it out yourself. Combo-play is definitely considered one of the strongest strategies right now. Moving to a true-randomizer will necessarily nerf Tetris / T-Spin play, because you can no longer predictably get Tetris or T-blocks. In my experience, most players want to play Tetris: that is, create Tetrises (4-line clears). Combo play is certainly fun, but it makes sense to "buff" the canonical "Tetris" strategy of the game since that's what people expect. Tetris is the name of the game after-all, and you can only play "Tetris" if you have some kind of assurances that I-blocks are on the way. Nerfing Tetris and buffing Combos seems to be the wrong direction for balance. If anything, Combos need to be nerfed. Perfect-clear play is also lovely to watch. Computers are better than humans, but when a human perfect-clear player comes in, its truly intense and fun to watch (and play against). Perfect-clear play relies upon the bag-randomizer to a severe degree, and isn't even that strong of a strategy (a good perfect-clear player needs to threaten 3x perfect clears within 20 seconds to be competitive at high levels). Moving to "true random" would erase this obscure style of play completely. ----------- In any case, there's a big community which prefers to play with true randomizers: the "Tetris Classic players". They play by a separate set of rules entirely. As a Guidelines Tetris player, I obviously have my bias. I think the game is more fun with Tetris, Combos, and Perfect-clear openings in play.
bjourne 7y ago
Yeah, it is interesting to ponder how much the game changes by a seemingly simple detail like how the pieces are generated. If they are generated uniformly then it is certain that the player will lose sooner or later (getting too many S or Z pieces in a row). It also has been shown that such a setup makes the game NP complete. https://arxiv.org/abs/cs/0210020 https://arxiv.org/abs/cs/0210020 It's way above my head but intuitively it feels like any randomization based on the bag model would give rise to optimal strategies, even making it possible to play indefinitely. PVP play as you say of course makes it much more interesting. It wouldn't surprise me if the strategies for playing well are just as deep as for playing Go or Chess.

dragontamer 7y ago

> more beginner friendly Not necessarily beginner friendly, but more importantly... competitive friendly. Since there's a high amount of determinism between bags, Tetris is a great competitive game. As such, Tetris can be played in an arcade setting without worrying about "bad luck" messing with one player or the other. This has led to the development of many good multiplayer Tetris games, such as Tetris Friends, Tetris Ultimate, Puyo Puyo Tetris, and Tetris 99.

wodenokoto 7y ago
Wouldn’t that problem be solved by simply setting both players seed value to the same? I believe the order of balls is the same for both players in bust-a-move, but still the boards will quickly diverge a lot.
- dragontamer 7y ago
  > Wouldn’t that problem be solved by simply setting both players seed value to the same? Lets say drop 100 through 110 were unlucky SZSZSZSZ pattern. The faster player will come across the "unfortunate" pattern first and then lose. In contrast, the slower player will only be on drop 80. The bag system ensures that high-speed play is possible for both players, and favors the faster player in all cases. A true randomized system would have "unfortunate" patterns which will eventually kill the faster player. ------ With that being said: Tetris Classic competitions seed the two competitors with the same pattern. But similarly, Tetris Classic has no concept of "garbage damage". In Tetris Friends / Puyo Puyo Tetris / etc. etc, you "damage" the opponent by doing a Tetris, or a T-spin (a complicated maneuver). Its actually a very good, very well balanced game (although some would argue that "combos" are a bit strong in the current iteration of the damage formula).
  - defertoreptar 7y ago
    > Lets say drop 100 through 110 were unlucky SZSZSZSZ pattern. The faster player will come across the "unfortunate" pattern first and then lose. In contrast, the slower player will only be on drop 80. Does the faster player get nothing in return for their speed advantage? If so, then shouldn't they just play slower? If not, then aren't they compensated fairly for the risk of running into a difficult sequence earlier in the game?
    - dragontamer 7y ago
      > Does the faster player get nothing in return for their speed advantage? In Guidelines Tetris, you only deal damage if you do a sufficiently complicated maneuver. A Tetris (4-line clear), a T-Spin ("spinning" a T-block into place), or a "Combo" (repeatedly clearing lines non-stop). As such, you only can do a major damage from I-blocks (a 4-line clear / Tetris), or T-blocks (TSpins). No other block in the game can deal major damage by themselves. So the placement of I blocks and T-blocks is fundamental. --------- Also note: Garbage is a "comeback" mechanism: large amounts of garbage "feed" the opponent lines to perform a combo with. If you deal non-lethal damage to the opponent, it is common for the opponent to use the garbage you sent him to "combo" into a large amount of damage back to you. As such: the game becomes more garbage is sent around. There is a chance the opponent can see a 12-combo through the garbage you sent them. Its difficult for the untrained players to see combos, but it definitely comes into play at higher-levels. --------- The current system (including the bag-randomizer) has been carefully balanced between many issues, and playtested for years. Aside from occasional issues (ex: TSpin singles becoming too easy in an early version: leading to the development of "TSpin Minis" to nerf that technique), the overall Tetris Guidelines rules are quite good. I recommend playing a modern competitive version of Tetris and trying it out yourself. Combo-play is definitely considered one of the strongest strategies right now. Moving to a true-randomizer will necessarily nerf Tetris / T-Spin play, because you can no longer predictably get Tetris or T-blocks. In my experience, most players want to play Tetris: that is, create Tetrises (4-line clears). Combo play is certainly fun, but it makes sense to "buff" the canonical "Tetris" strategy of the game since that's what people expect. Tetris is the name of the game after-all, and you can only play "Tetris" if you have some kind of assurances that I-blocks are on the way. Nerfing Tetris and buffing Combos seems to be the wrong direction for balance. If anything, Combos need to be nerfed. Perfect-clear play is also lovely to watch. Computers are better than humans, but when a human perfect-clear player comes in, its truly intense and fun to watch (and play against). Perfect-clear play relies upon the bag-randomizer to a severe degree, and isn't even that strong of a strategy (a good perfect-clear player needs to threaten 3x perfect clears within 20 seconds to be competitive at high levels). Moving to "true random" would erase this obscure style of play completely. ----------- In any case, there's a big community which prefers to play with true randomizers: the "Tetris Classic players". They play by a separate set of rules entirely. As a Guidelines Tetris player, I obviously have my bias. I think the game is more fun with Tetris, Combos, and Perfect-clear openings in play.

bjourne 7y ago

Yeah, it is interesting to ponder how much the game changes by a seemingly simple detail like how the pieces are generated. If they are generated uniformly then it is certain that the player will lose sooner or later (getting too many S or Z pieces in a row). It also has been shown that such a setup makes the game NP complete. https://arxiv.org/abs/cs/0210020 https://arxiv.org/abs/cs/0210020 It's way above my head but intuitively it feels like any randomization based on the bag model would give rise to optimal strategies, even making it possible to play indefinitely. PVP play as you say of course makes it much more interesting. It wouldn't surprise me if the strategies for playing well are just as deep as for playing Go or Chess.