8 ms·

But what if you want to only support software development and not social development? I think this is the crux of this thread of discussion.

oarsinsync 7y ago
I'm not sure that's a compatible position to be having, especially in the context of wanting a privacy-focused browser alternative to Chrome. It's inherently a social development in the form of software.
- RobertRoberts 7y ago
  Development of code is a technical action. Can you explain why a secondary action outside of writing code is required simply based on the results of the code? Surely you aren't suggesting that for Google to develop anti-privacy code would require them to have anti-privacy social development?
  - jshowa3 7y ago
    Development of code is not, strictly, a technical action. Otherwise, how would you know what to develop unless you discussed the requirements of the customer? Discussing requirements with the customer, or even within your team, involves several facets of industry, including diversity. For example, if you were trying to construct an app to measure diversity, you would need to know what category to measure, how to measure it, how to present it, etc. And getting requirements right is paramount to the results of the code. Of course, there are projects where these discussions are probably minimal (such as a kernel for instance), but in most cases, it compromises the majority of software development.
    - RobertRoberts 7y ago
      Are you saying that Mozilla's only social development is asking questions and "getting requirements"? And I entirely disagree that programming code /requires/ any social interaction at all. You can do it purely alone in a basement with no contact with anyone.
      - jshowa3 7y ago
        Yes, if you're making your own product. If you're not making your own product (ie. company development), then it's not purely a technical exercise. Even if you're making your own product, you at least want to get market data and/or customer feedback once you release it. Otherwise, what's the point of selling a product if your customers don't like it? And I'm not saying that gathering requirements is Mozilla's only social development. I'm saying that you underestimate how much social involvement there is to development, especially on the organization level, where code isn't purely technical.
        RobertRoberts 7y ago
        Do you feel their is a difference between asking people what they want in a browser and telling people how they should live their personal lives? Because I think that is a core distinction many of the commenters are concerned about here.
        jshowa3 7y ago
        Not really, Mozilla tells you to use its browser. So does every product. Why is that an issue? You're telling me you want to live a life where people aren't telling you how you should live? Just by the fact of the organization asking the people for feedback is an invitation for people to tell them what to do. If you don't want people telling you what to do, Hacker News ain't a great place to be.
        RobertRoberts 7y ago
        It will be a sad day when the only services and products you can buy or use require fealty to their world view.
Ensorceled 7y ago
The thread I'm replying to has moved on to implying Mozilla is being misleading by using funding or social development.
- RobertRoberts 7y ago
  Are you saying Mozilla does _not_ have social development projects? A specific comment on part of this thread seems to indicate it's part of their charter. (or something, not sure what to call it)
  - oarsinsync 7y ago
    Mozilla explicitly states that they have social development projects. Mozilla is not misleading anyone. The commentor you're replying to explicitly posted[0] this a few comments up as well: > "The direct work of the Mozilla Foundation focuses on fueling the movement for a healthy internet. We do this by supporting a diverse group of fellows working on key internet issues, connecting open Internet leaders at events like MozFest, publishing critical research in the Internet Health Report, and rallying citizens around advocacy issues that connect the wellbeing of the Internet directly to everyday life." [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20876014 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20876014
    - RobertRoberts 7y ago
      Thanks, that was the comment I recalled. You seemed to imply that Mozilla was being up front about where the money was being spent. Do you have any documentation on the budget inside Mozilla? Because I think this would solve the issue of transparency for many people here. If only a tiny fraction of the money went to social programs, maybe more people wouldn't care. But if it's a significant portion, then maybe they are being misleading. Either way, it would end some debate on the matter.
      - oarsinsync 7y ago
        Mozilla's financials are public.

oarsinsync 7y ago

I'm not sure that's a compatible position to be having, especially in the context of wanting a privacy-focused browser alternative to Chrome. It's inherently a social development in the form of software.

RobertRoberts 7y ago
Development of code is a technical action. Can you explain why a secondary action outside of writing code is required simply based on the results of the code? Surely you aren't suggesting that for Google to develop anti-privacy code would require them to have anti-privacy social development?
- jshowa3 7y ago
  Development of code is not, strictly, a technical action. Otherwise, how would you know what to develop unless you discussed the requirements of the customer? Discussing requirements with the customer, or even within your team, involves several facets of industry, including diversity. For example, if you were trying to construct an app to measure diversity, you would need to know what category to measure, how to measure it, how to present it, etc. And getting requirements right is paramount to the results of the code. Of course, there are projects where these discussions are probably minimal (such as a kernel for instance), but in most cases, it compromises the majority of software development.
  - RobertRoberts 7y ago
    Are you saying that Mozilla's only social development is asking questions and "getting requirements"? And I entirely disagree that programming code /requires/ any social interaction at all. You can do it purely alone in a basement with no contact with anyone.
    - jshowa3 7y ago
      Yes, if you're making your own product. If you're not making your own product (ie. company development), then it's not purely a technical exercise. Even if you're making your own product, you at least want to get market data and/or customer feedback once you release it. Otherwise, what's the point of selling a product if your customers don't like it? And I'm not saying that gathering requirements is Mozilla's only social development. I'm saying that you underestimate how much social involvement there is to development, especially on the organization level, where code isn't purely technical.
      - RobertRoberts 7y ago
        Do you feel their is a difference between asking people what they want in a browser and telling people how they should live their personal lives? Because I think that is a core distinction many of the commenters are concerned about here.
        jshowa3 7y ago
        Not really, Mozilla tells you to use its browser. So does every product. Why is that an issue? You're telling me you want to live a life where people aren't telling you how you should live? Just by the fact of the organization asking the people for feedback is an invitation for people to tell them what to do. If you don't want people telling you what to do, Hacker News ain't a great place to be.
        RobertRoberts 7y ago
        It will be a sad day when the only services and products you can buy or use require fealty to their world view.

Ensorceled 7y ago

The thread I'm replying to has moved on to implying Mozilla is being misleading by using funding or social development.

RobertRoberts 7y ago
Are you saying Mozilla does _not_ have social development projects? A specific comment on part of this thread seems to indicate it's part of their charter. (or something, not sure what to call it)
- oarsinsync 7y ago
  Mozilla explicitly states that they have social development projects. Mozilla is not misleading anyone. The commentor you're replying to explicitly posted[0] this a few comments up as well: > "The direct work of the Mozilla Foundation focuses on fueling the movement for a healthy internet. We do this by supporting a diverse group of fellows working on key internet issues, connecting open Internet leaders at events like MozFest, publishing critical research in the Internet Health Report, and rallying citizens around advocacy issues that connect the wellbeing of the Internet directly to everyday life." [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20876014 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20876014
  - RobertRoberts 7y ago
    Thanks, that was the comment I recalled. You seemed to imply that Mozilla was being up front about where the money was being spent. Do you have any documentation on the budget inside Mozilla? Because I think this would solve the issue of transparency for many people here. If only a tiny fraction of the money went to social programs, maybe more people wouldn't care. But if it's a significant portion, then maybe they are being misleading. Either way, it would end some debate on the matter.
    - oarsinsync 7y ago
      Mozilla's financials are public.