5 ms·

College admissions should be anonymous and strictly based on standardized tests.

by baggy_trough 7y ago

dbt00 7y ago
Standardized test taking is a skill but hardly the only one that matters.
- spaceflunky 7y ago
  Also, Goodhart's Law. "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure." There's people who spend their whole adolescence studying for the SATs and their parents pay for every possible tutor and advantage they can find. Side note, my friend's mom got him diagnosed with ADHD so that he could get extra time on SAT (spoiler: he never had ADHD). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law
  - gamedori 7y ago
    Current research shows a 20~30 point SAT1 improvement from specialized coaching [1]: > From 1981 to 1990, three separate analyses of all the prior studies were published in peer-reviewed journals. They found a coaching effect of 9 to 25 points on the SAT Verbal and of 15 to 25 points on the SAT Math. In 2004, Derek Briggs, using the National Education Longitudinal Study of 1988, found effects of 3 to 20 points for the SAT Verbal and 10 to 28 points for the SAT Math. Donald Powers and Donald Rock, using a nationally representative sample of students who took the SAT after its revisions in the mid-1990s, found an average coaching effect of 6 to 12 points on the SAT Verbal and 13 to 18 points on the SAT Math. I have not seen any studies on the effect of accomodations, though. I think the amount parents will pay for those relatively meagre extra points, and the fact that the parents in this case had to resort open bribery, speaks relatively well for the meritocraticness of the current system. Open the books, show us that nothing is being swept under the rug, and just let the undeserving children of millionaires go to third tier schools. [1] http://www.aei.org/publication/abolish-the-sat-2/ http://www.aei.org/publication/abolish-the-sat-2/
chrisseaton 7y ago
How can you possibly anonymise college admissions. Interview behind a curtain?
- markdown 7y ago
  Sure, or over a phone.
- rootw0rm 7y ago
  it's not a horrible idea. it's at least an interesting one. it's completely doable, but rich folk gonna find a bill sized hole to jam money thru no matter what.
- readhn 7y ago
  That is a great idea! shorturl.at/vHR57
- scarejunba 7y ago
  Have interviewers watch a deep-faked video call where everyone is Tom Cruise? :D It's a pity accents aren't properly fakeable yet.
- manfredo 7y ago
  Many universities don't require interviews. Most state schools don't.
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    That seems worse - reducing them to raw data rather than giving them a chance to explain where they’re coming from and what they want to get out of the course?
    - manfredo 7y ago
      Interviews tend to favor wealthy, white applicants. Who do you think is going to leave a better impression on the interviewer: someone from an upper class family that has been coached in manners most of their life, knows what to wear, and has practiced these interviews? Or someone from a very different cultural background? Furthermore, the Harvard case has also demonstrated that interviews are used as a tool to suppress the chances of Asian applicants. While it may seem cold to reduce candidates to their applications, if the goal is to provide a consistent admissions process interviews are not a good choice.
Hasz 7y ago
As long as we're willing to expand standardized testing, I agree. So much effort goes towards eliminating bias in hiring, especially for white collar jobs, yet the portal to those jobs is couched in bias.
fountainofage 7y ago
The only way to beat corruption is by shining a huge spotlight on it and remove every spot people have to hide. I'll say the opposite - all college donations and income should be publicly available as soon as the ACH transaction clears. Questionable sources immediately flagged. Make every single dollar within the education system completely transparent. Then if some kid gets admitted, and we also see their parents made a $5 million donation, we can go ahead and appropriately stain that kid's admission. What about the kids who really earned that admittance and their parents made a sizable donation? Then the parents donate their funds to another educational institution. Or the kid attends another institution. Wherever these two actions overlap - immediately assume fraud over anything else. On bribes directly to individuals - their funds are all publicly available as well. If that's a problem, there are millions of other jobs they could pursue rather than being a useless parasite on the education system.

College admissions should be anonymous and strictly based on standardized tests.

dbt00 7y ago

Standardized test taking is a skill but hardly the only one that matters.

spaceflunky 7y ago
Also, Goodhart's Law. "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure." There's people who spend their whole adolescence studying for the SATs and their parents pay for every possible tutor and advantage they can find. Side note, my friend's mom got him diagnosed with ADHD so that he could get extra time on SAT (spoiler: he never had ADHD). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law
- gamedori 7y ago
  Current research shows a 20~30 point SAT1 improvement from specialized coaching [1]: > From 1981 to 1990, three separate analyses of all the prior studies were published in peer-reviewed journals. They found a coaching effect of 9 to 25 points on the SAT Verbal and of 15 to 25 points on the SAT Math. In 2004, Derek Briggs, using the National Education Longitudinal Study of 1988, found effects of 3 to 20 points for the SAT Verbal and 10 to 28 points for the SAT Math. Donald Powers and Donald Rock, using a nationally representative sample of students who took the SAT after its revisions in the mid-1990s, found an average coaching effect of 6 to 12 points on the SAT Verbal and 13 to 18 points on the SAT Math. I have not seen any studies on the effect of accomodations, though. I think the amount parents will pay for those relatively meagre extra points, and the fact that the parents in this case had to resort open bribery, speaks relatively well for the meritocraticness of the current system. Open the books, show us that nothing is being swept under the rug, and just let the undeserving children of millionaires go to third tier schools. [1] http://www.aei.org/publication/abolish-the-sat-2/ http://www.aei.org/publication/abolish-the-sat-2/

chrisseaton 7y ago

How can you possibly anonymise college admissions. Interview behind a curtain?

markdown 7y ago
Sure, or over a phone.
rootw0rm 7y ago
it's not a horrible idea. it's at least an interesting one. it's completely doable, but rich folk gonna find a bill sized hole to jam money thru no matter what.
readhn 7y ago
That is a great idea! shorturl.at/vHR57
scarejunba 7y ago
Have interviewers watch a deep-faked video call where everyone is Tom Cruise? :D It's a pity accents aren't properly fakeable yet.
manfredo 7y ago
Many universities don't require interviews. Most state schools don't.
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  That seems worse - reducing them to raw data rather than giving them a chance to explain where they’re coming from and what they want to get out of the course?
  - manfredo 7y ago
    Interviews tend to favor wealthy, white applicants. Who do you think is going to leave a better impression on the interviewer: someone from an upper class family that has been coached in manners most of their life, knows what to wear, and has practiced these interviews? Or someone from a very different cultural background? Furthermore, the Harvard case has also demonstrated that interviews are used as a tool to suppress the chances of Asian applicants. While it may seem cold to reduce candidates to their applications, if the goal is to provide a consistent admissions process interviews are not a good choice.

Hasz 7y ago

As long as we're willing to expand standardized testing, I agree. So much effort goes towards eliminating bias in hiring, especially for white collar jobs, yet the portal to those jobs is couched in bias.

fountainofage 7y ago

The only way to beat corruption is by shining a huge spotlight on it and remove every spot people have to hide. I'll say the opposite - all college donations and income should be publicly available as soon as the ACH transaction clears. Questionable sources immediately flagged. Make every single dollar within the education system completely transparent. Then if some kid gets admitted, and we also see their parents made a $5 million donation, we can go ahead and appropriately stain that kid's admission. What about the kids who really earned that admittance and their parents made a sizable donation? Then the parents donate their funds to another educational institution. Or the kid attends another institution. Wherever these two actions overlap - immediately assume fraud over anything else. On bribes directly to individuals - their funds are all publicly available as well. If that's a problem, there are millions of other jobs they could pursue rather than being a useless parasite on the education system.