4 ms·

When discussing a group, we need to stay at a group level. Moving between individuals and a group as a whole is not constructive. Grade school teachers tend

When discussing a group, we need to stay at a group level. Moving between individuals and a group as a whole is not constructive. Grade school teachers tend to graduate with degrees in English/History, and haven't had experiences in work outside of teaching grade school. My solution for this problem is better professional development. Make a 4 day work week, with one day of training in a new career (something completely not related to teaching/pedagogical development).

t-writescode 7y ago
I have a strong suspicion that there are so many exceptions to your assumptions here that your model is wrong. My finest computer science teachers never did anything but teach, either. At the high school and collegiate levels. Same with my favorite college English teacher. I think a more effective route is to regularly fire the bad teachers, so they can’t harm students with their poor guidance.
moate 7y ago
>>Teachers try to sedate students because they have nothing valuable to teach. Let's try and break this extreme opinion down into some components. What is "valuable" to you? Why would working outside of teaching help someone be better at teaching their subject matter? Is this statement for teachers across all levels, or just grade school? How is it that gross generalization opinions are constructive, but empirical personal experiences providing evidence that contradict that generalization aren't?
- mymythisisthis 7y ago
  ""What is "valuable" to you?"" I think that these ideas of relativism are dying. I respect people that are good in their field. I value science and disparage things like alternative medicines. "empirical personal experiences" - this is wrong, personal experience are not empirical. Was my statement a gross generalization, sure. But; -most grade school teachers have graduated with very liberal arts degrees, -there has been a steady devaluation of degrees, -many are young when they get hired as teachers, out of college, -wealthy families pay for extra tutoring, and camps, (wealth has always been the best factor in determining academic success), -in order to teach about something you need to know about something. If eduction was supposed to be a meritocracy, its failed. It's a systemic failure, no one person is responsible, no one person can save the educational system. Economy and class matter more than education, is the lesson of the last 30 years. Realists and pessimists have long concluded that the purpose of the educational system is to work as a babysitter, it's cost effective.
  - moate 7y ago
    Okay Mr. "I value Science", let's keep this going. First, all my basis is on the U.S. education system. If you're basing your idea on some other country, I'll tap out because I have no basis. >> this is wrong, personal experience are not empirical. All personal experience is, by definition, empirical. The definition of "empirical" is here: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empirical https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empirical. You're literally wrong. >>most grade school teachers have graduated with very liberal arts degrees Citation Needed. Is "Elementary Education" a "very liberal art"? Who is more qualified to teach 6-10 year olds if not someone with a Masters in Elementary Education (generally the minimum requirement) in your opinion? >>many are young when they get hired as teachers, out of college Your proposed solution doesn't address this. The 4/1 just means that teachers will now face an additional difficulty, finding a 2nd job to have "real world experience", in order to teach 7 year olds how to read and write. >>in order to teach about something you need to know about something. Of course. But there's millions of students spread across tens of thousands of school districts. IDK where we're suddenly going to find all of these domain experts willing to take lower pay and miss out on career advancement in exchange for educating children. >>Economy and class matter more than education, is the lesson of the last 30 years. I'm sorry, are you only 30 years old and therefor unaware that this is the lesson of the course of human history? Social and economic factors are your majority factors for everything, but that feeds directly into education by allowing for school choice (either by sending to private schools or moving into well funded, higher performing public schools). The fact that you're lumping the "realists and pessimists" together on who has decided what school actually is, shows your contempt for the system. I get that, you feel it's broken (so do I actually, but not at all for the reasons you do). I just find your idea that "all elementary school teachers are bad at their job" to be founded on poor/lacking data and a complete misunderstanding of the specifics of primary education.
    - mymythisisthis 7y ago
      Empiricism is about quantifying natural phenomena. Empiricist discussed 'personal experiences' that were physical, as they wanted to exclude the occult and supernatural guff. They didn't mean it is o.k. to count personal anecdotes as evidence. Admitting that economy and class determine educational attainment, negates any argument that any specific pedagogical techniques are helpful.
NotSammyHagar 7y ago
You generalize in a useless and offensive way. One could also say programmers have mostly only had one job, programmer, and they don't understand how society works and the needs of different jobs. Your solution for that could be better professional development too. Maybe all those tech bros need to get into the real world, see the problems that say teachers face so they can figure out what to focus on.

t-writescode 7y ago

I have a strong suspicion that there are so many exceptions to your assumptions here that your model is wrong. My finest computer science teachers never did anything but teach, either. At the high school and collegiate levels. Same with my favorite college English teacher. I think a more effective route is to regularly fire the bad teachers, so they can’t harm students with their poor guidance.

moate 7y ago

>>Teachers try to sedate students because they have nothing valuable to teach. Let's try and break this extreme opinion down into some components. What is "valuable" to you? Why would working outside of teaching help someone be better at teaching their subject matter? Is this statement for teachers across all levels, or just grade school? How is it that gross generalization opinions are constructive, but empirical personal experiences providing evidence that contradict that generalization aren't?

mymythisisthis 7y ago
""What is "valuable" to you?"" I think that these ideas of relativism are dying. I respect people that are good in their field. I value science and disparage things like alternative medicines. "empirical personal experiences" - this is wrong, personal experience are not empirical. Was my statement a gross generalization, sure. But; -most grade school teachers have graduated with very liberal arts degrees, -there has been a steady devaluation of degrees, -many are young when they get hired as teachers, out of college, -wealthy families pay for extra tutoring, and camps, (wealth has always been the best factor in determining academic success), -in order to teach about something you need to know about something. If eduction was supposed to be a meritocracy, its failed. It's a systemic failure, no one person is responsible, no one person can save the educational system. Economy and class matter more than education, is the lesson of the last 30 years. Realists and pessimists have long concluded that the purpose of the educational system is to work as a babysitter, it's cost effective.
- moate 7y ago
  Okay Mr. "I value Science", let's keep this going. First, all my basis is on the U.S. education system. If you're basing your idea on some other country, I'll tap out because I have no basis. >> this is wrong, personal experience are not empirical. All personal experience is, by definition, empirical. The definition of "empirical" is here: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empirical https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empirical. You're literally wrong. >>most grade school teachers have graduated with very liberal arts degrees Citation Needed. Is "Elementary Education" a "very liberal art"? Who is more qualified to teach 6-10 year olds if not someone with a Masters in Elementary Education (generally the minimum requirement) in your opinion? >>many are young when they get hired as teachers, out of college Your proposed solution doesn't address this. The 4/1 just means that teachers will now face an additional difficulty, finding a 2nd job to have "real world experience", in order to teach 7 year olds how to read and write. >>in order to teach about something you need to know about something. Of course. But there's millions of students spread across tens of thousands of school districts. IDK where we're suddenly going to find all of these domain experts willing to take lower pay and miss out on career advancement in exchange for educating children. >>Economy and class matter more than education, is the lesson of the last 30 years. I'm sorry, are you only 30 years old and therefor unaware that this is the lesson of the course of human history? Social and economic factors are your majority factors for everything, but that feeds directly into education by allowing for school choice (either by sending to private schools or moving into well funded, higher performing public schools). The fact that you're lumping the "realists and pessimists" together on who has decided what school actually is, shows your contempt for the system. I get that, you feel it's broken (so do I actually, but not at all for the reasons you do). I just find your idea that "all elementary school teachers are bad at their job" to be founded on poor/lacking data and a complete misunderstanding of the specifics of primary education.
  - mymythisisthis 7y ago
    Empiricism is about quantifying natural phenomena. Empiricist discussed 'personal experiences' that were physical, as they wanted to exclude the occult and supernatural guff. They didn't mean it is o.k. to count personal anecdotes as evidence. Admitting that economy and class determine educational attainment, negates any argument that any specific pedagogical techniques are helpful.

NotSammyHagar 7y ago

You generalize in a useless and offensive way. One could also say programmers have mostly only had one job, programmer, and they don't understand how society works and the needs of different jobs. Your solution for that could be better professional development too. Maybe all those tech bros need to get into the real world, see the problems that say teachers face so they can figure out what to focus on.