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I'm a little disappointed with chromebooks as well. I was one of the kids who was a little disappointed when the first MacOS came out. Where was the command li

by geebee 7y ago

I'm a little disappointed with chromebooks as well. I was one of the kids who was a little disappointed when the first MacOS came out. Where was the command line? Where did I wrote code? The commodore64 did a lot more for kids who wanted to learn about computers, an affordable and highly hackable and programmable computer. I felt like the first Mac was a big step forward in terms of ease of use for the general consumer, but a step back from the AppleII in getting in there and really enjoying computing. Chromebooks put more, not less distance, between a kid and what I consider to be the interesting things about a computer. Think of it this way - google talks a lot about a critical skills shortage. Ok, so, would a kid who grows up using a Chromebook be more likely to develop these skills than a kid who uses a linux system, or Mac OS X? Or hell, even a windows system, at least it's relatively easy to get a bash shell working there. Nah, let's face it, the future of google's workforce is not going to be found among the the kids using google's educational products. Bet you google execs and high up engineers most definitely have their kids learning on something else, and they probably avoid too much exposure to any kind of electronics for a longer period of childhood than google pushes out there in the classroom.

ocdtrekkie 7y ago
Indeed. And all of those frustrations people have using Windows computers end up teaching problem solving skills in a far more effective manner than anything you could put in a textbook.
- filoleg 7y ago
  The thing is, it is a backwards way to look at things. Regular students shouldn't need to deal with frustrations of windows machines and learn all the skills needed to solve issues with OS just to perform their school-related tasks. I, personally, see the value in those skills, but for students who are not interested in it, it is just an unnecessary hassle and a source of frustration. It's like saying that having an easily repairable, but not that reliable or user-friendly, car is a good opportunity to learn problem-solving and basic vehicle maintenance skills. As someone not interested in that, I just want a reliable device that will drive me in comfort and convenience from point A to point B without making me worry about having to fix anything.
  - geebee 7y ago
    We're programmers, and I am aware that I need to keep that in mind. But I think reliability vs. hackability is a false dilemma. Personally, I worry about having to fix something when I'm incapable of fixing it. That's why it stresses me out when my car or washing machine breaks. But true, that breaks all the time just because I can fix it with a trip to the hardware store. The thing is... well, sure, easily repairable but not reliable isn't necessarily a trade off that needs to happen. Google could have done what apple did with OsX, but at a realistic price point. An easy to use, affordable and reliable UI with astonishing power right beneath the surface, all based on Unix, in the hands of millions of school aged kids. This could have been the Commodore 64 or apple II times a thousand. Instead, we have the Chromebook. Note I deleted the last line which on reflection was excessive and not useful to the discussion.
    - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
      What you describe is not a chromebook in 2019. I have android apps, and linux apps. I can run different versions of linux, run gui tools and many people are using atom, and all the other editors. This is precisely what a chromebook allows in 2019 with crostini.
  - andai 7y ago
    I think it was meant to be a joke. But in all seriousness, one of the main reasons I continue to use linux, despite the technical problems, is precisely the technical problems. I like figuring things out and solving them. The old advice, if you want to get good at computers, use unix, still holds true today, precisely because it won't hold your hand.
    - filoleg 7y ago
      Now that you mentioned it, i can see how it can be interpreted as a joke. However, looking at all the other replies, a lot of people seem to actually seriously hold that belief. I agree with you on the rest, however. I, personally, enjoy learning about computing by fixing stuff, hacking, etc. However, this won't hold true for everyone, and they shouldn't be subjected to this weird form of hazing with "we got through it, you gotta do it too, otherwise you won't learn all those computer skills (that you don't care about at all)!" Reminds me a bit of some people in the US being almost religious about driving a car with a manual transmission. I get it, it is fun sometimes, and a pretty cool skill to have, but I am glad that most people in the US don't have to deal with that unless they want to. I had to learn it (because 99% of motorcycles still come in manual transmission only), but I do not think that manual is some life changing skill that needs to be learned by everyone. Those who need it will learn, those who don't will not, and it is a good thing we have this option. No need to force this on everyone.
filoleg 7y ago
Chromebooks in education were not supposed to get students interested in computing or teach them about it. They were supposed to be used as an alternative for heavy backpacks with books and make scheduling and other organizational things to be done easier (considering that all of those things are slowly moving to online space, like class registration, gradebooks, etc.). I.e., it isn't a programming-friendly OS vs. chromebooks, it is heavy backpacks filled with textbooks and notebooks vs. chromebooks. Don't mistake chromebooks for a computing tool, it is an everyday student things kind of tool that just happens to be served by a computing device.
- geebee 7y ago
  And yet, google has induced millions of families to spend their limited computing budget on a "non-programmable" OS. Was it really beyond google's capabilities to make this a more open, perhaps linux based environment?
  - filoleg 7y ago
    >And yet, google has induced millions of families to spend their limited computing budget on a "non-programmable" OS. As far as I am aware, chromebooks in education are provided by school districts, families aren't paying for it directly. You can always resort to "they are paying for it with taxes", but that would be the same for any non-chromebooks as well, except it would end up being more expensive (they won't be sold at as high of a loss as google can afford with chromebooks; count all that extra IT administration needed for non-chromebooks, adding a lot of costs as well). >Was it really beyond google's capabilities to make this a more open, perhaps linux based environment? It wasn't beyond their capabilities, it just wasn't a good idea for the purposes chromebooks were supposed to serve.
  - leggomylibro 7y ago
    I dunno, I got a C202SA Chromebook specifically for software development. It was designed for schools, so it has a spillproof keyboard, shock-resistant case, 1.5-2 days of battery life with my usage, it only costs like $250, and it's smaller than 12". I installed GalliumOS, and I love it. It is a complete Linux environment (Ubuntu), and it easily meets my needs even if Firefox sometimes slows down a bit with Javascript-heavy web apps (I haven't installed Chrome.) My only complaint is the limited storage space. Google may not ship Chromebooks with a customizable OS, but they and the OEMs don't interfere with end users' ability to install one (yet), and I really appreciate that the education market has created so much demand for machines with this sort of form factor.
superfrank 7y ago
Just wanted to point out that Chromebooks run Linux under the hood and as of late 2018/early 2019 you can access it on all new Chromebooks and a good number of older ones by clicking on the settings icon and turning on "Linux (Beta)".
- geebee 7y ago
  That’s a big deal and may change my opinion. My experience with chrome books is older than that. I’ll look into this. Thanks for the info.
geebee 7y ago
Can’t edit and leave a note on my original post(too much time elapsed), but I want to acknowledge I have read the replies informing me that chromebooks have changed since i got one several years ago, and that they now do some of these things and have a beta command line. That’s a game changer, as big a deal as the terminal in osx vs earlier macs I haven’t looked into it yet but it appears that my criticisms no longer apply to the current product. In blunter words, I had it wrong about chromebooks in 2019. It sounds like many of the tools I care about are still a little clunky, but now a possibility, and will likely get better over time. https://alex.miller.im/posts/data-science-chromebook-pixelbook-jupyter-python-r/ https://alex.miller.im/posts/data-science-chromebook-pixelbo...

by geebee 7y ago

ocdtrekkie 7y ago

Indeed. And all of those frustrations people have using Windows computers end up teaching problem solving skills in a far more effective manner than anything you could put in a textbook.

filoleg 7y ago
The thing is, it is a backwards way to look at things. Regular students shouldn't need to deal with frustrations of windows machines and learn all the skills needed to solve issues with OS just to perform their school-related tasks. I, personally, see the value in those skills, but for students who are not interested in it, it is just an unnecessary hassle and a source of frustration. It's like saying that having an easily repairable, but not that reliable or user-friendly, car is a good opportunity to learn problem-solving and basic vehicle maintenance skills. As someone not interested in that, I just want a reliable device that will drive me in comfort and convenience from point A to point B without making me worry about having to fix anything.
- geebee 7y ago
  We're programmers, and I am aware that I need to keep that in mind. But I think reliability vs. hackability is a false dilemma. Personally, I worry about having to fix something when I'm incapable of fixing it. That's why it stresses me out when my car or washing machine breaks. But true, that breaks all the time just because I can fix it with a trip to the hardware store. The thing is... well, sure, easily repairable but not reliable isn't necessarily a trade off that needs to happen. Google could have done what apple did with OsX, but at a realistic price point. An easy to use, affordable and reliable UI with astonishing power right beneath the surface, all based on Unix, in the hands of millions of school aged kids. This could have been the Commodore 64 or apple II times a thousand. Instead, we have the Chromebook. Note I deleted the last line which on reflection was excessive and not useful to the discussion.
  - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
    What you describe is not a chromebook in 2019. I have android apps, and linux apps. I can run different versions of linux, run gui tools and many people are using atom, and all the other editors. This is precisely what a chromebook allows in 2019 with crostini.
- andai 7y ago
  I think it was meant to be a joke. But in all seriousness, one of the main reasons I continue to use linux, despite the technical problems, is precisely the technical problems. I like figuring things out and solving them. The old advice, if you want to get good at computers, use unix, still holds true today, precisely because it won't hold your hand.
  - filoleg 7y ago
    Now that you mentioned it, i can see how it can be interpreted as a joke. However, looking at all the other replies, a lot of people seem to actually seriously hold that belief. I agree with you on the rest, however. I, personally, enjoy learning about computing by fixing stuff, hacking, etc. However, this won't hold true for everyone, and they shouldn't be subjected to this weird form of hazing with "we got through it, you gotta do it too, otherwise you won't learn all those computer skills (that you don't care about at all)!" Reminds me a bit of some people in the US being almost religious about driving a car with a manual transmission. I get it, it is fun sometimes, and a pretty cool skill to have, but I am glad that most people in the US don't have to deal with that unless they want to. I had to learn it (because 99% of motorcycles still come in manual transmission only), but I do not think that manual is some life changing skill that needs to be learned by everyone. Those who need it will learn, those who don't will not, and it is a good thing we have this option. No need to force this on everyone.

filoleg 7y ago

Chromebooks in education were not supposed to get students interested in computing or teach them about it. They were supposed to be used as an alternative for heavy backpacks with books and make scheduling and other organizational things to be done easier (considering that all of those things are slowly moving to online space, like class registration, gradebooks, etc.). I.e., it isn't a programming-friendly OS vs. chromebooks, it is heavy backpacks filled with textbooks and notebooks vs. chromebooks. Don't mistake chromebooks for a computing tool, it is an everyday student things kind of tool that just happens to be served by a computing device.

geebee 7y ago
And yet, google has induced millions of families to spend their limited computing budget on a "non-programmable" OS. Was it really beyond google's capabilities to make this a more open, perhaps linux based environment?
- filoleg 7y ago
  >And yet, google has induced millions of families to spend their limited computing budget on a "non-programmable" OS. As far as I am aware, chromebooks in education are provided by school districts, families aren't paying for it directly. You can always resort to "they are paying for it with taxes", but that would be the same for any non-chromebooks as well, except it would end up being more expensive (they won't be sold at as high of a loss as google can afford with chromebooks; count all that extra IT administration needed for non-chromebooks, adding a lot of costs as well). >Was it really beyond google's capabilities to make this a more open, perhaps linux based environment? It wasn't beyond their capabilities, it just wasn't a good idea for the purposes chromebooks were supposed to serve.
- leggomylibro 7y ago
  I dunno, I got a C202SA Chromebook specifically for software development. It was designed for schools, so it has a spillproof keyboard, shock-resistant case, 1.5-2 days of battery life with my usage, it only costs like $250, and it's smaller than 12". I installed GalliumOS, and I love it. It is a complete Linux environment (Ubuntu), and it easily meets my needs even if Firefox sometimes slows down a bit with Javascript-heavy web apps (I haven't installed Chrome.) My only complaint is the limited storage space. Google may not ship Chromebooks with a customizable OS, but they and the OEMs don't interfere with end users' ability to install one (yet), and I really appreciate that the education market has created so much demand for machines with this sort of form factor.

superfrank 7y ago

Just wanted to point out that Chromebooks run Linux under the hood and as of late 2018/early 2019 you can access it on all new Chromebooks and a good number of older ones by clicking on the settings icon and turning on "Linux (Beta)".

geebee 7y ago
That’s a big deal and may change my opinion. My experience with chrome books is older than that. I’ll look into this. Thanks for the info.

geebee 7y ago

Can’t edit and leave a note on my original post(too much time elapsed), but I want to acknowledge I have read the replies informing me that chromebooks have changed since i got one several years ago, and that they now do some of these things and have a beta command line. That’s a game changer, as big a deal as the terminal in osx vs earlier macs I haven’t looked into it yet but it appears that my criticisms no longer apply to the current product. In blunter words, I had it wrong about chromebooks in 2019. It sounds like many of the tools I care about are still a little clunky, but now a possibility, and will likely get better over time. https://alex.miller.im/posts/data-science-chromebook-pixelbook-jupyter-python-r/ https://alex.miller.im/posts/data-science-chromebook-pixelbo...