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> But alas, iMessage pressure is real in my friend's group. Man, in my extended family SMS text group, this comes up once every couple weeks. One of us will n

> But alas, iMessage pressure is real in my friend's group. Man, in my extended family SMS text group, this comes up once every couple weeks. One of us will note they aren't getting a random message, or someone will send a video and the quality will be crap, and the iPhone users will all mention how if we all had iPhones, this wouldn't be a problem. Cue a few of is getting kind of triggered because it's only Apple's co-opting of SMS on their phones that those people think that's really an Android problem and not some slick marketing on Apple's end to get their users to tell other people how their SMS texting is so much better. Not that we couldn't all just switch to some third party app (or hangouts even), and then we'd all have a comparable experience, but that's entirely lost on most of them, and not worth griping about after the first or second time or you come across as that weird relative that can't just do the easy thing[1]). I can't wait for RCS messaging. I'm honestly wondering it Apple will support it, or try to segment the text messaging market even more. 1: As if buying a $750 phone is the "easy thing". Edit: Changed $1000 to $750, since that's the lowest cost I could find for a 1 year old phone, and I don't think buying multiple year old hardware is something you can expect out of someone else, even if it might be my preferred strategy).

robertoandred 7y ago
iPhones start at $450.
- kbenson 7y ago
  That right, you're correct. If I want to buy a new phone that's three years old, I can pay $450 for an iPhone 7. Or $600 for a 2 year old phone, or $750, for a phone released a year ago, which is more what I would consider when buying a new phone (why would I buy a new phone that's multiple years old hardware?). So, I think $750 is a fair amount to reference, and I agree that $1000 is a bit high.
  - coding123 7y ago
    That's why I paid 475 for the OnePlus 7 (not the pro I can't stand the pop out camera). I was going in for the latest tech, I don't want 3 year old tech for that price.
    - nailer 7y ago
      Hah I love the pop up camera, I can't stand holes in my screen.
  - shuckles 7y ago
    Why does release date matter? Apple could re-release an old phone in a new package, as it did with SE, and qualify for your pricing comparison.
    - kbenson 7y ago
      Because if I bought a new phone last year, why would I want to spend money to buy a new phone now that's worse than what I already had? Telling someone to buy an iPhone because of this is pretentious. Telling them to buy an iPhone that may be worse performance wise than their current phone is way worse.
      - shuckles 7y ago
        It seems like in your original post, you were saying that iPhone was not a good value. Yet the A series chips consistently outperform Snapdragon by years, and software support for iPhone probably means a years old model has more official life than a latest Android. I don’t think the reply was suggesting you get a new phone specifically. They were responding to your claim that iPhone is on face not a good value.
        kbenson 7y ago
        No, I wasn't saying it's not a good value. I was saying it's a ridiculous thing to ask of someone that may have a completely serviceable phone that might even be brand new. It's like telling someone to buy a Mercedes or Volvo. It may be a very good product, but that doesn't mean there's not a lot of assumptions in any recommendation to buy one, especially if it doesn't consider the quality, cost or age of your current car other than "not a Mercedes or Volvo".
        shuckles 7y ago
        Except in this case you can buy iPhone for $450 which is less than the OnePlus6 in my locale. SOCs compare favorably between the two devices. I guess I’m not seeing why iPhone is akin to a luxury car brand.
- batrat 7y ago
  Hmm... all the rich/fanboys downvoting. Even at $450 you get the specs from 3 years ago. Cmon people, wake up.
rolltiide 7y ago
No iOS user thinks its "Android's" problem, but they do know that being on Android is the problem. iOS = 1 ecosystem. Android = infinite ecosystems with no cohesion. One has native capability and consistent user experience which is now better for social interaction. The other has people rationalizing how a non-native app can be used which also wouldn't solve the aforementioned problem of receiving a random type of message, because nobody wants that experience, they want the rich experience that is native to iOS. The android native experiences described even in OP's blog post won't be available for AGES on most people's devices, and even in that age they won't be reliable features because of custom OS' and devices won't be allowed to support it, based on the preference of those distributors. iOS users aren't confused about that shitshow, iOS users know that it doesn't matter why, there is simply no consensus to fixing it on android, no path to consensus on fixing on android, and a group of hopeful technology enthusiasts that missed the memo on how android cohesion will never get better.
- lern_too_spel 7y ago
  What is the benefit of this cohesion that you're missing? Why should different Android devices be any more cohesive in terms of features than Android devices vs. iOS devices? If you want the latest features, you buy an Android One, Pixel, or Nokia phone. If you don't, you buy an iOS phone or some other Android phone.
wyldfire 7y ago
> Man, in my extended family SMS text group, this comes up once every couple weeks. One of us will note they aren't getting a random message, or someone will send a video and the quality will be crap, and the iPhone users will all mention how if we all had iPhones, this wouldn't be a problem. IMO a reasonable compromise is WhatsApp. Rich features like iMessage's but portable and lots of people already use it. I have never had a Facebook account and I've always been wary of them. I think it's fair to be concerned about privacy w/WhatsApp but I'm torn because it's a very practical solution.
- gnusty_gnurc 7y ago
  Telegram is the best compromise imo
  - wyldfire 7y ago
    Yeah, Signal or Telegram might be a much better balance. But I don't want to be a salesman and try and push the technically superior choice on my friends and family. If I did, though, I would probably push one of those.
  - heinrich5991 7y ago
    I don't like suggesting Telegram because it is not end-to-end encrypted. I prefer WhatsApp (where it's Facebook that has access to all the metadata like who speaks to whom, but not the message contents), or Signal (which is also end-to-end encrypted and doesn't have the "Facebook" problem).
    - wyldfire 7y ago
      Note that even though I advocate for WhatsApp I recognize that it's not really what I would call "end to end encrypted". Any time that you allow a broker to execute the initial key exchange, you're implicitly trusting the broker. And beyond that: if you let the broker re-exchange keys without even informing you (!!!) then it's a stretch to call it "end to end encrypted." But if the system re-transmits old messages encrypted with the new keys without user interaction then "end to end encrypted" has lost all meaning whatsoever. You can opt-in to at least be informed of new key exchanges, so at least I can tell myself that I took some precautions. But if I'm honest I know that it's not very effective.
microcolonel 7y ago
They really ought to have some sort of format for setting up APN properly based on URIs, which could then be put in QR codes on fresh SIM card packages.
- ubercow13 7y ago
  When I put in a fresh SIM, APN details are sent via some kind of special SMS and automatically set up. I think it’s been this way for a decade or more
  - derefr 7y ago
    I've had a bunch of cellular ISPs over the years, and I've noticed that cellular infrastructure providers have this capability, but MVNOs seemingly do not.
ssully 7y ago
iOS user here who successfully convinced one of my group chats to migrate to Signal. Shaming people into buying an iPhone will never work, but downloading a free app just takes a few days of bugging. Once you get a few people to do it, the rest will fall in line. Next step is to get my family to do it. My Dad constantly sends video's that get compressed to hell due to the SMS file size limit.
threeseed 7y ago
RCS is dead. The take up amongst operators is really low. And it's unlikely that will change anytime soon as their focus is on the 5G rollout and not on re-platforming their messaging system. Also the system is unencrypted so you would have to be crazy to use it in this environment.
- kbenson 7y ago
  Apparently it's live in the UK and France for Android as of a couple months ago[1], so maybe not entirely dead? 1: https://9to5google.com/2019/07/01/rcs-hands-on-not-quite-imessage-for-android/ https://9to5google.com/2019/07/01/rcs-hands-on-not-quite-ime...
  - threeseed 7y ago
    Only one operator in UK (Vodafone) so far. There are about 800+ mobile phone operators around the world and based on reports about 50 or so have signed up. Not a great percentage after 10+ years. And I think the lack of encryption is going to kill adoption in many parts of the world.
    - kbenson 7y ago
      "But now Google is taking over: later this month, Android users in the UK and France will be able to opt in to RCS Chat services provided directly by Google instead of waiting for their carrier to support it."[1] Sounds like we might get some movement on this soon, as Google is offering their own servers as a fall-back in the case that the network provider hasn't provided their own. 1: https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/17/18681573/google-rcs-chat-android-texting-carriers-imessage-encryption https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/17/18681573/google-rcs-chat-...
  - Mindwipe 7y ago
    Live in the UK. Never received an RCS. Nor has anyone I know. For all Google's bluster here it's not supported by the carriers, and only works on Google's own SMS app - not the AOSP or OEM ones - which only the tiniest proportion of the market uses as it's not the default on 90%+ of Android phones shipping today. There is no UK RCS market.
BinaryIdiot 7y ago
> I can't wait for RCS messaging. I'm honestly wondering it Apple will support it, or try to segment the text messaging market even more. I mean, RCS is practically dead (at least in the USA). But even if it does come it'll basically replace SMS with something slightly better. I don't see how it addresses the iMessage stuff. iMessage will likely still send much higher quality images and videos and RCS, AFAIK, can't do some the same features like showing who's typing. RCS is cool but I don't think it's going to be a game changer in any way. I think it'll just be an incremental update, if it even comes to the USA.
- lern_too_spel 7y ago
  The big four carriers in the US already support RCS. iDevices do not, so that limits who you can communicate with.
graeme 7y ago
>send a video and the quality will be crap Isn’t this because sms doesn’t send high quality photos/videos? With imessage you get full quality images, it’s very nice. It’s also encrypted. >Not that we couldn't all just switch to some third party app (or hangouts even), and then we'd all have a comparable experience Which one? Whatsapp and messenger compress images, fairly significantly. Messenger is unencrypted by default. Whatsapp is encrypted, but you have to give facebooks your contacts, and metadata on the convos, which gives away a lot of info. I use both, and whatsapp does have some better features (voice notes are better, as is search), but I prefer imessage for the image quality and encryption. I also trust apple better with the metadata.
ksec 7y ago
>Man, in my extended family SMS text group, this comes up once every couple weeks. One of us will note they aren't getting a random message, or someone will send a video and the quality will be crap, and the iPhone users will all mention how if we all had iPhones, this wouldn't be a problem. I don't understand why iMessages is so popular in US, and it is pretty much US and France ( SMS ) only AFAIK. It is like when the world was on ICQ, they had AIM. When the world moved to MSN, they still stuck to AIM. And just like AIM, iMessages sucks. I tried it many times and the same problem persist. Some users in the group not getting message, message appeared not in timely order, sometimes random message from the past appear. Needs to Recreate group to solve user not getting message problem, which means all previous group messages are in different group. It is slow as compared to WhatsApp. Icons and Packs are far worst, it is as if Apple has never used WeChat, KakaoTalk, Line, WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, or Telegram. Then there is huge amount of SMS Notification and Receipt that gets muddles up in the list of conversation. It is a Giant pile of Mess. Every year I read something about iMessages being popular ( in US ) and every year I tried with my group of friends. And the answer remain the same. And it is so god damn bad most of my friends now refuse to try it again. Edit: And iMessages does't always Sync on my Mac.

robertoandred 7y ago

iPhones start at $450.

kbenson 7y ago
That right, you're correct. If I want to buy a new phone that's three years old, I can pay $450 for an iPhone 7. Or $600 for a 2 year old phone, or $750, for a phone released a year ago, which is more what I would consider when buying a new phone (why would I buy a new phone that's multiple years old hardware?). So, I think $750 is a fair amount to reference, and I agree that $1000 is a bit high.
- coding123 7y ago
  That's why I paid 475 for the OnePlus 7 (not the pro I can't stand the pop out camera). I was going in for the latest tech, I don't want 3 year old tech for that price.
  - nailer 7y ago
    Hah I love the pop up camera, I can't stand holes in my screen.
- shuckles 7y ago
  Why does release date matter? Apple could re-release an old phone in a new package, as it did with SE, and qualify for your pricing comparison.
  - kbenson 7y ago
    Because if I bought a new phone last year, why would I want to spend money to buy a new phone now that's worse than what I already had? Telling someone to buy an iPhone because of this is pretentious. Telling them to buy an iPhone that may be worse performance wise than their current phone is way worse.
    - shuckles 7y ago
      It seems like in your original post, you were saying that iPhone was not a good value. Yet the A series chips consistently outperform Snapdragon by years, and software support for iPhone probably means a years old model has more official life than a latest Android. I don’t think the reply was suggesting you get a new phone specifically. They were responding to your claim that iPhone is on face not a good value.
      - kbenson 7y ago
        No, I wasn't saying it's not a good value. I was saying it's a ridiculous thing to ask of someone that may have a completely serviceable phone that might even be brand new. It's like telling someone to buy a Mercedes or Volvo. It may be a very good product, but that doesn't mean there's not a lot of assumptions in any recommendation to buy one, especially if it doesn't consider the quality, cost or age of your current car other than "not a Mercedes or Volvo".
        shuckles 7y ago
        Except in this case you can buy iPhone for $450 which is less than the OnePlus6 in my locale. SOCs compare favorably between the two devices. I guess I’m not seeing why iPhone is akin to a luxury car brand.
batrat 7y ago
Hmm... all the rich/fanboys downvoting. Even at $450 you get the specs from 3 years ago. Cmon people, wake up.

rolltiide 7y ago

No iOS user thinks its "Android's" problem, but they do know that being on Android is the problem. iOS = 1 ecosystem. Android = infinite ecosystems with no cohesion. One has native capability and consistent user experience which is now better for social interaction. The other has people rationalizing how a non-native app can be used which also wouldn't solve the aforementioned problem of receiving a random type of message, because nobody wants that experience, they want the rich experience that is native to iOS. The android native experiences described even in OP's blog post won't be available for AGES on most people's devices, and even in that age they won't be reliable features because of custom OS' and devices won't be allowed to support it, based on the preference of those distributors. iOS users aren't confused about that shitshow, iOS users know that it doesn't matter why, there is simply no consensus to fixing it on android, no path to consensus on fixing on android, and a group of hopeful technology enthusiasts that missed the memo on how android cohesion will never get better.

lern_too_spel 7y ago
What is the benefit of this cohesion that you're missing? Why should different Android devices be any more cohesive in terms of features than Android devices vs. iOS devices? If you want the latest features, you buy an Android One, Pixel, or Nokia phone. If you don't, you buy an iOS phone or some other Android phone.

wyldfire 7y ago

gnusty_gnurc 7y ago
Telegram is the best compromise imo
- wyldfire 7y ago
  Yeah, Signal or Telegram might be a much better balance. But I don't want to be a salesman and try and push the technically superior choice on my friends and family. If I did, though, I would probably push one of those.
- heinrich5991 7y ago
  I don't like suggesting Telegram because it is not end-to-end encrypted. I prefer WhatsApp (where it's Facebook that has access to all the metadata like who speaks to whom, but not the message contents), or Signal (which is also end-to-end encrypted and doesn't have the "Facebook" problem).
  - wyldfire 7y ago
    Note that even though I advocate for WhatsApp I recognize that it's not really what I would call "end to end encrypted". Any time that you allow a broker to execute the initial key exchange, you're implicitly trusting the broker. And beyond that: if you let the broker re-exchange keys without even informing you (!!!) then it's a stretch to call it "end to end encrypted." But if the system re-transmits old messages encrypted with the new keys without user interaction then "end to end encrypted" has lost all meaning whatsoever. You can opt-in to at least be informed of new key exchanges, so at least I can tell myself that I took some precautions. But if I'm honest I know that it's not very effective.

microcolonel 7y ago

They really ought to have some sort of format for setting up APN properly based on URIs, which could then be put in QR codes on fresh SIM card packages.

ubercow13 7y ago
When I put in a fresh SIM, APN details are sent via some kind of special SMS and automatically set up. I think it’s been this way for a decade or more
- derefr 7y ago
  I've had a bunch of cellular ISPs over the years, and I've noticed that cellular infrastructure providers have this capability, but MVNOs seemingly do not.

ssully 7y ago

iOS user here who successfully convinced one of my group chats to migrate to Signal. Shaming people into buying an iPhone will never work, but downloading a free app just takes a few days of bugging. Once you get a few people to do it, the rest will fall in line. Next step is to get my family to do it. My Dad constantly sends video's that get compressed to hell due to the SMS file size limit.

threeseed 7y ago

RCS is dead. The take up amongst operators is really low. And it's unlikely that will change anytime soon as their focus is on the 5G rollout and not on re-platforming their messaging system. Also the system is unencrypted so you would have to be crazy to use it in this environment.

kbenson 7y ago
Apparently it's live in the UK and France for Android as of a couple months ago[1], so maybe not entirely dead? 1: https://9to5google.com/2019/07/01/rcs-hands-on-not-quite-imessage-for-android/ https://9to5google.com/2019/07/01/rcs-hands-on-not-quite-ime...
- threeseed 7y ago
  Only one operator in UK (Vodafone) so far. There are about 800+ mobile phone operators around the world and based on reports about 50 or so have signed up. Not a great percentage after 10+ years. And I think the lack of encryption is going to kill adoption in many parts of the world.
  - kbenson 7y ago
    "But now Google is taking over: later this month, Android users in the UK and France will be able to opt in to RCS Chat services provided directly by Google instead of waiting for their carrier to support it."[1] Sounds like we might get some movement on this soon, as Google is offering their own servers as a fall-back in the case that the network provider hasn't provided their own. 1: https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/17/18681573/google-rcs-chat-android-texting-carriers-imessage-encryption https://www.theverge.com/2019/6/17/18681573/google-rcs-chat-...
- Mindwipe 7y ago
  Live in the UK. Never received an RCS. Nor has anyone I know. For all Google's bluster here it's not supported by the carriers, and only works on Google's own SMS app - not the AOSP or OEM ones - which only the tiniest proportion of the market uses as it's not the default on 90%+ of Android phones shipping today. There is no UK RCS market.

BinaryIdiot 7y ago

> I can't wait for RCS messaging. I'm honestly wondering it Apple will support it, or try to segment the text messaging market even more. I mean, RCS is practically dead (at least in the USA). But even if it does come it'll basically replace SMS with something slightly better. I don't see how it addresses the iMessage stuff. iMessage will likely still send much higher quality images and videos and RCS, AFAIK, can't do some the same features like showing who's typing. RCS is cool but I don't think it's going to be a game changer in any way. I think it'll just be an incremental update, if it even comes to the USA.

lern_too_spel 7y ago
The big four carriers in the US already support RCS. iDevices do not, so that limits who you can communicate with.

graeme 7y ago

>send a video and the quality will be crap Isn’t this because sms doesn’t send high quality photos/videos? With imessage you get full quality images, it’s very nice. It’s also encrypted. >Not that we couldn't all just switch to some third party app (or hangouts even), and then we'd all have a comparable experience Which one? Whatsapp and messenger compress images, fairly significantly. Messenger is unencrypted by default. Whatsapp is encrypted, but you have to give facebooks your contacts, and metadata on the convos, which gives away a lot of info. I use both, and whatsapp does have some better features (voice notes are better, as is search), but I prefer imessage for the image quality and encryption. I also trust apple better with the metadata.

ksec 7y ago

>Man, in my extended family SMS text group, this comes up once every couple weeks. One of us will note they aren't getting a random message, or someone will send a video and the quality will be crap, and the iPhone users will all mention how if we all had iPhones, this wouldn't be a problem. I don't understand why iMessages is so popular in US, and it is pretty much US and France ( SMS ) only AFAIK. It is like when the world was on ICQ, they had AIM. When the world moved to MSN, they still stuck to AIM. And just like AIM, iMessages sucks. I tried it many times and the same problem persist. Some users in the group not getting message, message appeared not in timely order, sometimes random message from the past appear. Needs to Recreate group to solve user not getting message problem, which means all previous group messages are in different group. It is slow as compared to WhatsApp. Icons and Packs are far worst, it is as if Apple has never used WeChat, KakaoTalk, Line, WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, or Telegram. Then there is huge amount of SMS Notification and Receipt that gets muddles up in the list of conversation. It is a Giant pile of Mess. Every year I read something about iMessages being popular ( in US ) and every year I tried with my group of friends. And the answer remain the same. And it is so god damn bad most of my friends now refuse to try it again. Edit: And iMessages does't always Sync on my Mac.