4 ms·

I’ve used many different keyboards. I can’t say I’m a keyboard connoisseur, but I’ve probably used every possible combination of “keys” arranged on a “board”. M

by maxaf 7y ago

I’ve used many different keyboards. I can’t say I’m a keyboard connoisseur, but I’ve probably used every possible combination of “keys” arranged on a “board”. My takeaway from all this is that the switches matter a lot less than how keys are arranged. You see, human hands will become injured over a prolonged period of contortion into the shape needed to operate standard keyboards. For this reason I prefer ErgoDox. https://ergodox-ez.com/ https://ergodox-ez.com/

Spearchucker 7y ago
Best keyboard I've ever used. And after all the horror stories about how long it takes to relearn I was back to normal speed after about a month.
- alpaca128 7y ago
  Well, it is quite a bad experience in the first days. It's both learning a very new layout as well as getting used to the ortho alignment of the keys, where in the beginning I automatically used the wrong finger for a lot of keys. That said I'm glad I made the leap, because no standard keyboard can match that level of comfort. It's not that normal keyboards are bad, but it's a bit like going from cheap generic shoes to custom-tailored ones. I don't type much faster or accurately on it, but it feels much better, every single day.
hollerith 7y ago
>You see, human hands will become injured over a prolonged period of contortion into the shape needed to operate standard keyboards. There is no significant contortion needed to operate a standard keyboard. Sadly, the standard keyboard does encourage a regrettable bending of the wrist, but I have found it straightforward to learn not to yield to that encouragement. (Boards such as the Amazon Basics or Apple's keyboards in which the top of every key cap is flat rather than cylindrical help because cylindricality encourages the typist to line the finger up with the axis of the cylinder.) I have learned to pay attention to the bend of my wrists (the bend in the vertical plane, that is). Once that became a habit, it has taken very little of my mental bandwidth to periodically bring my attention back to my wrists. I do lots of typing and have not had any RSI since about 2004 despite my having a chronic health problem that causes chronic inflammation, which in turn makes me more susceptible to RSI and despite my using membrane keyboards for the last 10 years or so. Specifically, I used 3 of the relatively expensive and fragile Logitech K750 (not recommended unless you are rich), then one cheap K120 (not recommended), then 3 Amazon Basics (recommended). The Amazon Basics is $13 incl shipping ($10 each if you buy ten) whereas the cheapest configuration (no tilt kit, no wing rests) of your board is $270. Advocates of mechanical keyboards will reply that the mechanical switches will last about 10 times longer than the membrane switches of the Amazon Basics, which I do not dispute, but if you keep your keyboard that long, you've got to clean it very well every year or 2 to keep the population of germs to reasonable levels. My personal experience with mechanical keyboards is that I never find the time to do the thorough cleaning maybe because of a nagging feeling in the back of my mind that even a thorough cleaning won't reduce the germ levels to anything nearly as low as the levels of a new keyboard. And by the time the mechanical board is 10 times older than the age at which the keys of a membrane board start to become mushy, you've probably had to do 1 or 2 repairs of electrical problems on the mechanical board. Case in point: for a few (not more than 4) years in the 1990s I used a Kinesis Advantage, which consists of about 10 PC boards internally. When one of these 10 boards failed somehow (rendering the board useless) the manufacturer told me it could be replaced by them for 50 bucks, back when a new board cost about 270. (I decided not to pay that because I had learned by then that I didn't like typing on that design of keyboard.) In summary, being able to afford to replace my keyboard every year or 2 saves me from tedious cleaning an repairing tasks, which I find worth the cost of my having slightly less attention to give to the cognitive content of whatever programming task or writing task I am engaged in when I am typing because I reserve a very small fraction of my attention to how bent my wrists are. Actually, the case for cheap keyboard is even strong than that. Here goes. When a typist switches from a standard keyboard to an ergonomic keyboard, the sheer unfamiliarity of the new keyboard basically forces the typists to pay much closer attention to the physical act of typing than he needed to pay while using the familiar keyboard. I believe it is this increase in paying of attention that is the cause of most of the reports of ameliorations of RSI after switching to an ergo keyboard, and that if the RSI sufferer had been familiar with an ergo board, then switching to a standard board would produce ameliorations at roughly the same rate and to the same degree! In particular, regardless of what kind of keyboard we are using, we should pay enough attention to the physical act of typing to ensure than (1) our wrists are in roughly neutral position, (2) at the moment the tip of our finger hits a key cap during a keystroke, the tip is moving faster than it would have been able to move if the tip were resting on the key cap at the start of the keystroke (3) at the moment of contact, the finger tip is moving roughly in the same direction that the key will travel. I am told that the reason (2) is important / desirable is that the human brain is better at striking accurately than it is at pushing accurately. I am also told that there is something about the "backswing", that is, the moving of the finger tip away from its target in preparation for a movement towards the target, that improves accuracy and consequently reduces the strains that lead to RSI. If they made a cheap keyboard that did not encourage the typist to bend his wrists and was otherwise as good as the Amazon Basics, I would switch to it. But no matter what board I use, to avoid RSI I have learned I needed to pay slight attention to ensure (2) and (3) above. Given that, it is very little additional trouble for me to ensure (1).
- alpaca128 7y ago
  The cost of the ErgoDox is why I bought a kit instead. It's more effort to solder the switches, flash the board etc., but I saved a chunk of the price. It can also be repaired more easily, although contrary to your experience I don't have the impression that would be required for a long time. It's not like such a keyboard is life-changing, but it's a significant improvement in comfort. For a tool that I use every single day that was worth it for me, if others are satisfied with an Amazon Basics model that's fine too; I haven't tried it myself, but I do know that some non-mechanical keyboards offer a great tactile feedback for much lower prices.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - hollerith 7y ago
    >For a tool that I use every single day that was worth it for me Well, sure if it were guaranteed to prevent or cure RSI then either spending hundreds of dollars or getting out the soldering gun would clearly be worth it. But I suspect you didn't get my point, which is that I spent the $270 in 1997 dollars for a Kinesis Advantage (and later on a different mechanical board) and it did not work for me. Or more precisely it did work for a month or 2 -- not because the Kinesis was more innately ergonomic than any other board, but rather because I wasn't used to it. Once I got used to it, it stopped working.
- cwyers 7y ago
  > The Amazon Basics is $13 incl shipping ($10 each if you buy ten) whereas the cheapest configuration (no tilt kit, no wing rests) of your board is $270. Or you could get a Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 for $35.
  - hollerith 7y ago
    I am not willing to spend the money to give it an extended try because it probably would prove worse for me that the Amazon Basics because the PC board or boards the keys are mounted on are curved. With any curved board, I worry that I will have to pay too much attention to achieve the condition (3) in my previous comment (without my constantly looking at the board, which of course is important to avoid). That was my big problem with the Kinesis Advantage. For convenience I will now repeat condition (3) from my previous comment: at the moment of contact, the finger tip is moving roughly in the same direction that the key will travel. Keys mounted on a curved PC board will all travel in different directions. My worry is that for me to maintain my condition (3) during my use of such a board will require me to pay an excessive amount of attention to keeping memorized to a sufficient degree of precision the direction of travel of every key. (If I'm not constantly looking at my keyboard, then the only way for me to maintain my condition (3) is to have the travel direction of every key memorized.) When all the keys travel in the same direction, as is the case with any standard keyboard, I only need to keep memorized that single direction. Also there is a condition (4) not mentioned in my previous post: namely, to strike the key cap roughly at the key's center line, which is made easier when as is the case in a standard keyboard, but is not the case with any of Microsoft's post-2005 ergonomic keyboards, each center line of a key with a letter or number on it is exactly .75 inches from the center line of its neighbors left and right provided the neighbor also has a letter or number on it. Microsoft's pre-2005 ergonomic keyboards were OK, i.e., not curved. (The direction of travel of the keys on the left half of the board was significantly different from the direction of travel of the keys on the right half, which meant I needed to keep memorized 2 different directions of travel, which was easy enough -- and of course vastly easier than memorizing the 80 or so different directions of travel of any post-2005 Microsoft ergonomic keyboard I am aware of.) I bought 1 or 2 when they were still being produced. My big problem with them was their lack of sufficient "key stability": that is, like most cheap keyboards of the time, the key cap would rotate a lot when struck off the center line or when the direction the tip of the finger is moving on contact with the key cap is not parallel to the key's direction of travel. Among the really cheap keyboards I have used, the Amazon Basics has by far the most key stability. (Its short key travel helps it there. Also, I suspect, but was unable to use a search engine to confirm, it uses a scissor mechanism, which also helps.)
rainhacker 7y ago
Which type of switches do you use in ErgoDox?

by maxaf 7y ago

Spearchucker 7y ago

Best keyboard I've ever used. And after all the horror stories about how long it takes to relearn I was back to normal speed after about a month.

alpaca128 7y ago
Well, it is quite a bad experience in the first days. It's both learning a very new layout as well as getting used to the ortho alignment of the keys, where in the beginning I automatically used the wrong finger for a lot of keys. That said I'm glad I made the leap, because no standard keyboard can match that level of comfort. It's not that normal keyboards are bad, but it's a bit like going from cheap generic shoes to custom-tailored ones. I don't type much faster or accurately on it, but it feels much better, every single day.

hollerith 7y ago

>You see, human hands will become injured over a prolonged period of contortion into the shape needed to operate standard keyboards. There is no significant contortion needed to operate a standard keyboard. Sadly, the standard keyboard does encourage a regrettable bending of the wrist, but I have found it straightforward to learn not to yield to that encouragement. (Boards such as the Amazon Basics or Apple's keyboards in which the top of every key cap is flat rather than cylindrical help because cylindricality encourages the typist to line the finger up with the axis of the cylinder.) I have learned to pay attention to the bend of my wrists (the bend in the vertical plane, that is). Once that became a habit, it has taken very little of my mental bandwidth to periodically bring my attention back to my wrists. I do lots of typing and have not had any RSI since about 2004 despite my having a chronic health problem that causes chronic inflammation, which in turn makes me more susceptible to RSI and despite my using membrane keyboards for the last 10 years or so. Specifically, I used 3 of the relatively expensive and fragile Logitech K750 (not recommended unless you are rich), then one cheap K120 (not recommended), then 3 Amazon Basics (recommended). The Amazon Basics is $13 incl shipping ($10 each if you buy ten) whereas the cheapest configuration (no tilt kit, no wing rests) of your board is $270. Advocates of mechanical keyboards will reply that the mechanical switches will last about 10 times longer than the membrane switches of the Amazon Basics, which I do not dispute, but if you keep your keyboard that long, you've got to clean it very well every year or 2 to keep the population of germs to reasonable levels. My personal experience with mechanical keyboards is that I never find the time to do the thorough cleaning maybe because of a nagging feeling in the back of my mind that even a thorough cleaning won't reduce the germ levels to anything nearly as low as the levels of a new keyboard. And by the time the mechanical board is 10 times older than the age at which the keys of a membrane board start to become mushy, you've probably had to do 1 or 2 repairs of electrical problems on the mechanical board. Case in point: for a few (not more than 4) years in the 1990s I used a Kinesis Advantage, which consists of about 10 PC boards internally. When one of these 10 boards failed somehow (rendering the board useless) the manufacturer told me it could be replaced by them for 50 bucks, back when a new board cost about 270. (I decided not to pay that because I had learned by then that I didn't like typing on that design of keyboard.) In summary, being able to afford to replace my keyboard every year or 2 saves me from tedious cleaning an repairing tasks, which I find worth the cost of my having slightly less attention to give to the cognitive content of whatever programming task or writing task I am engaged in when I am typing because I reserve a very small fraction of my attention to how bent my wrists are. Actually, the case for cheap keyboard is even strong than that. Here goes. When a typist switches from a standard keyboard to an ergonomic keyboard, the sheer unfamiliarity of the new keyboard basically forces the typists to pay much closer attention to the physical act of typing than he needed to pay while using the familiar keyboard. I believe it is this increase in paying of attention that is the cause of most of the reports of ameliorations of RSI after switching to an ergo keyboard, and that if the RSI sufferer had been familiar with an ergo board, then switching to a standard board would produce ameliorations at roughly the same rate and to the same degree! In particular, regardless of what kind of keyboard we are using, we should pay enough attention to the physical act of typing to ensure than (1) our wrists are in roughly neutral position, (2) at the moment the tip of our finger hits a key cap during a keystroke, the tip is moving faster than it would have been able to move if the tip were resting on the key cap at the start of the keystroke (3) at the moment of contact, the finger tip is moving roughly in the same direction that the key will travel. I am told that the reason (2) is important / desirable is that the human brain is better at striking accurately than it is at pushing accurately. I am also told that there is something about the "backswing", that is, the moving of the finger tip away from its target in preparation for a movement towards the target, that improves accuracy and consequently reduces the strains that lead to RSI. If they made a cheap keyboard that did not encourage the typist to bend his wrists and was otherwise as good as the Amazon Basics, I would switch to it. But no matter what board I use, to avoid RSI I have learned I needed to pay slight attention to ensure (2) and (3) above. Given that, it is very little additional trouble for me to ensure (1).

alpaca128 7y ago
The cost of the ErgoDox is why I bought a kit instead. It's more effort to solder the switches, flash the board etc., but I saved a chunk of the price. It can also be repaired more easily, although contrary to your experience I don't have the impression that would be required for a long time. It's not like such a keyboard is life-changing, but it's a significant improvement in comfort. For a tool that I use every single day that was worth it for me, if others are satisfied with an Amazon Basics model that's fine too; I haven't tried it myself, but I do know that some non-mechanical keyboards offer a great tactile feedback for much lower prices.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- hollerith 7y ago
  >For a tool that I use every single day that was worth it for me Well, sure if it were guaranteed to prevent or cure RSI then either spending hundreds of dollars or getting out the soldering gun would clearly be worth it. But I suspect you didn't get my point, which is that I spent the $270 in 1997 dollars for a Kinesis Advantage (and later on a different mechanical board) and it did not work for me. Or more precisely it did work for a month or 2 -- not because the Kinesis was more innately ergonomic than any other board, but rather because I wasn't used to it. Once I got used to it, it stopped working.
cwyers 7y ago
> The Amazon Basics is $13 incl shipping ($10 each if you buy ten) whereas the cheapest configuration (no tilt kit, no wing rests) of your board is $270. Or you could get a Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 for $35.
- hollerith 7y ago
  I am not willing to spend the money to give it an extended try because it probably would prove worse for me that the Amazon Basics because the PC board or boards the keys are mounted on are curved. With any curved board, I worry that I will have to pay too much attention to achieve the condition (3) in my previous comment (without my constantly looking at the board, which of course is important to avoid). That was my big problem with the Kinesis Advantage. For convenience I will now repeat condition (3) from my previous comment: at the moment of contact, the finger tip is moving roughly in the same direction that the key will travel. Keys mounted on a curved PC board will all travel in different directions. My worry is that for me to maintain my condition (3) during my use of such a board will require me to pay an excessive amount of attention to keeping memorized to a sufficient degree of precision the direction of travel of every key. (If I'm not constantly looking at my keyboard, then the only way for me to maintain my condition (3) is to have the travel direction of every key memorized.) When all the keys travel in the same direction, as is the case with any standard keyboard, I only need to keep memorized that single direction. Also there is a condition (4) not mentioned in my previous post: namely, to strike the key cap roughly at the key's center line, which is made easier when as is the case in a standard keyboard, but is not the case with any of Microsoft's post-2005 ergonomic keyboards, each center line of a key with a letter or number on it is exactly .75 inches from the center line of its neighbors left and right provided the neighbor also has a letter or number on it. Microsoft's pre-2005 ergonomic keyboards were OK, i.e., not curved. (The direction of travel of the keys on the left half of the board was significantly different from the direction of travel of the keys on the right half, which meant I needed to keep memorized 2 different directions of travel, which was easy enough -- and of course vastly easier than memorizing the 80 or so different directions of travel of any post-2005 Microsoft ergonomic keyboard I am aware of.) I bought 1 or 2 when they were still being produced. My big problem with them was their lack of sufficient "key stability": that is, like most cheap keyboards of the time, the key cap would rotate a lot when struck off the center line or when the direction the tip of the finger is moving on contact with the key cap is not parallel to the key's direction of travel. Among the really cheap keyboards I have used, the Amazon Basics has by far the most key stability. (Its short key travel helps it there. Also, I suspect, but was unable to use a search engine to confirm, it uses a scissor mechanism, which also helps.)

rainhacker 7y ago

Which type of switches do you use in ErgoDox?