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Compared to a diet of pure fruits and vegetables and grains as the guy says? True, Beyond/Impossible aren't as healthy as that. But he's literally comparing a

Compared to a diet of pure fruits and vegetables and grains as the guy says? True, Beyond/Impossible aren't as healthy as that. But he's literally comparing a veggie burger to a salad, not what it's replacing: ground up cow meat that's reassembled in a factory. You won't find everything in ground beef listed on a label. Fake burgers are a transition and off-ramp for people looking to eat less meat. Not people living a purist lifestyle like the Whole Foods CEO. Beyond Meat/Impossible serve as nice punching bag for people denying the impact of the beef trade has on the environment and this article is catnip for them.

DivestTrump 7y ago
Absolutely. Oreos are vegan and nobody would argue they're healthy. As processed as some "meat alternatives" may be, it's still a better path than meat for health. Objectively, nicorette is unhealthy, but doctors will recommend it all day if it helps you quit smoking.
- brodouevencode 7y ago
  How is Nicorette unhealthy?
  - s_dev 7y ago
    It contains nicotene -- a well known carcinogenic.
    - brodouevencode 7y ago
      I'm not so sure that's the case: https://cancer-code-europe.iarc.fr/index.php/en/ecac-12-ways/tobacco/199-nicotine-cause-cancer https://cancer-code-europe.iarc.fr/index.php/en/ecac-12-ways...
    - slimed 7y ago
      Nicotine does not cause cancer.
    - EpicEng 7y ago
      Nicotine is not, in any way, a "well known carcinogen". https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4553893/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4553893/
      - s_dev 7y ago
        From the abstract of your paper: Recent studies have shown that nicotine can affect several important steps in the development of cancer
        EpicEng 7y ago
        Also from the paper >At present, it is not possible to draw a conclusion whether nicotine itself may act as a complete carcinogen If you're going to quote it, include the bits that don't agree with you as well. The paper basically says "it may affect the role of other cancer causing agents, but we're not sure yet. We cannot say that nicotine is, in and of itself, a carcinogen" Also reach back in time 30 minutes and remember that you claimed nicotine is, by itself, a "well known carcinogen", which is false.
  - coder4life 7y ago
    Nicotine is NOT a carcinogenic. Lots of things in a cigarette are, but not the one thing that people want from it. https://blog.dana-farber.org/insight/2018/07/nicotine-cause-cancer/ https://blog.dana-farber.org/insight/2018/07/nicotine-cause-...
  - wil421 7y ago
    The local news and hospitals were citing a recent upward trend in the numbers of teens with a certain lung symptom. They linked it to vaping in teens. At the very end of the segment they said the lung issue could be caused by nicotine alone being inhaled, didn’t matter it if was vape or smoke.
    - EpicEng 7y ago
      Which would be a ridiculous use case. Everything is deadly at a high enough dose. No one in their right mind is vaping pure nicotine. It could kill you via skin absorption alone.
  - dragonwriter 7y ago
    It's an immunosuppressant. Which can be useful at times, but the immune system has an important function and you probably don't want it suppressed except as a specific measured response to a particular problem.
  - fucking_tragedy 7y ago
    Nicotine is a stimulant, and stimulants are not without side-effects. There isn't a stimulant known that doesn't put stress on the cardiovascular system. Nicotine increases blood pressure, heart rate and vasoconstriction. Reminder that a low-grade stimulant like caffeine is considered to have deleterious effects.
AndrewBissell 7y ago
Yes, processed vegetable oils and extracted pea & soy proteins are worse for you than ground beef.
hombre_fatal 7y ago
Yeah, I don't understand why people suddenly act like they're nutrition min-maxers when it comes to this subject.
- aries1980 7y ago
  Like every kind of nutrition would have the same effect in everyone. Extrapolating data of some thousands of people to 5 continents of all ages…
prpl 7y ago
Not all ground beef is bottom of the barrel ground beef. Obviously buying the cheapest thing in a 10 lb tube isn't exactly a recipe for success, but let's be honest, the Beyond Impossible crowd probably wasn't purchasing that to begin with.
teetermld 7y ago
> Americans switching from beef to plant-based patties would be equivalent to taking 12 million cars off the road for an entire year. But they point out 372 million people not eating meat is the same as 12 million cars off the road for 1 year! Where do they get these garbage numbers?
- outside1234 7y ago
  CO2 numbers for each and division?
- weaksauce 7y ago
  probably analysis of the carbon emissions that beef and beef externalities produce compared to the average emission of a typical car and then aggregate that into a single comparison to highlight just how much beef and beef production emits to the environment.
balls187 7y ago
Actually misses the point entirely. Comparing a Beef patty to a Beyond Meat patty shows roughly comparable macro nutritional values. [1],[2] Beyond Meat "wins" in that it does not have any cholesterol, and no trans fats. But each has comparable calories, and fat levels. (Though it should be noted that Beyond Meat is most likely much better for the environment oz for oz). The issue that the Whole Foods CEO is taking is that Beyond Meat is marketed as a healthy alternative to meat. It is only marginally more healthy at best. Replace a cheese burger with Beyond Meat and you still have something that is unhealthy. I'd liken this to the same diet fad marketing that vegetarian food was healthier. This lead to Americans believing they were being healthy while over consuming pastas and other processed grains simply because they omitted the meat. 1: https://www.beyondmeat.com/products/the-beyond-burger/ https://www.beyondmeat.com/products/the-beyond-burger/ 2: https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/usda/ground-beef-(85%25-lean---15%25-fat-patty-cooked-broiled)?portionid=46541&portionamount=4.000 https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/usda/ground-bee...
- coder4life 7y ago
  How is "marginally more healthy _at_ best" defined? Vegetarian food is healthier, and reduces all cause mortality. Here's one of many studies that say so: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31387433 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31387433
  - balls187 7y ago
    The study is about plant-based diets, not "vegetarian food." I don't have access to the article, so I'm not sure what they define as a plant-based diet, but Harvard defines them as a diet focused mostly on plants, not one that omits meat (vegetarian) and/or animal products completely (Vegan). I wouldn't argue a diet based around plants is more healthy than one that is not, but I wouldn't generalize and say vegetarian (read: no meat) is more healthy than one that does involve meat. > How is "marginally more healthy _at_ best" defined? Just comparing the nutritional values between 4oz of beef vs 4oz of Beyond Meat.
  - simonsarris 7y ago
    No it isn't, and that study isn't even about vegetarians. Studies done in the USA can have very disparate conclusions because questionnaire studies are terrible w.r.t. diet "in your study, "The ARIC study did not assess whether participants were following a plant‐based diet.", the average person eats insanely unhealthy (> 70% overweight) and the average american's idea of meat is basically fried bread with condiment levels of meat. It's further confounded because vegetarians are usually higher SES or conscientious about what they're eating in the first place. So you would expect to find studies disputing this and also studies that find the health effects of vegetarian diets are not unique. And you do: (2012) Vegetarian diets, low-meat diets and health: a review. Public Health Nutr 15: 2287–2294. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22717188 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22717188 > CONCLUSIONS: The health benefits of vegetarian diets are not unique. Prudent plant-based dietary patterns which also allow small intakes of red meat, fish and dairy products have demonstrated significant improvements in health status as well. At this time an optimal dietary intake for health status is unknown. Plant-based diets contain a host of food and nutrients known to have independent health benefits. While vegetarian diets have not shown any adverse effects on health, restrictive and monotonous vegetarian diets may result in nutrient deficiencies with deleterious effects on health. For this reason, appropriate advice is important to ensure a vegetarian diet is nutritionally adequate especially for vulnerable groups. 2017 study shows "no evidence that following a vegetarian diet, semi-vegetarian diet or a pesco-vegetarian diet has an independent protective effect on all-cause mortality": https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28040519/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28040519/ An Austrian study suggests vegetarians are less healthy and have a lower quality of life, and higher rates of mental illness: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0088278&type=printable https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/jo... In Australia, which I think has one of the highest meat intakes in the world, "We found no evidence that following a vegetarian diet, semi-vegetarian diet or a pesco-vegetarian diet has an independent protective effect on all-cause mortality." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28040519?dopt=Abstract https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28040519?dopt=Abstract
yumraj 7y ago
> Fake burgers are a transition and off-ramp for people looking to eat less meat. This is similar to the argument for vaping vs. smoking, and just yesterday there was report, and have been in the past, about the harm caused by the other chemicals in vaping liquid which IMO may make it worse than smoking. The question is, are we going to find out soon that the additives in these fake meat burgers are worse (or at least equally bad) for health than real meat?
- erikpukinskis 7y ago
  The additives are not new. So probably not, but maybe.
- coder4life 7y ago
  Vaping isn't worse than smoking. Take it from a pack a day for 27 years smoker who just started vaping 2 months ago. I don't wake up any longer coughing so hard the neighborhood can hear it. There are 1,300 deaths in the US every day from smoking. Are these in the papers? You know the answer to that. There has been 1 reported death by the CDC from vaping, and people are losing their minds over it. We don't even know if it was because of vaping; we know that someone got sick, and they smoked a vaporizer.
- EpicEng 7y ago
  >which IMO may make it worse than smoking. This stuff isn't subjective. No one with any amount of credibility attached to their name is making that claim, so what's your basis for it?
bagacrap 7y ago
The title of the article states that meat alternatives are good for the environment so how did you arrive at the conclusion that this in any way denies the impact of the meat trade on the environment?

DivestTrump 7y ago

Absolutely. Oreos are vegan and nobody would argue they're healthy. As processed as some "meat alternatives" may be, it's still a better path than meat for health. Objectively, nicorette is unhealthy, but doctors will recommend it all day if it helps you quit smoking.

brodouevencode 7y ago
How is Nicorette unhealthy?
- s_dev 7y ago
  It contains nicotene -- a well known carcinogenic.
  - brodouevencode 7y ago
    I'm not so sure that's the case: https://cancer-code-europe.iarc.fr/index.php/en/ecac-12-ways/tobacco/199-nicotine-cause-cancer https://cancer-code-europe.iarc.fr/index.php/en/ecac-12-ways...
  - slimed 7y ago
    Nicotine does not cause cancer.
  - EpicEng 7y ago
    Nicotine is not, in any way, a "well known carcinogen". https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4553893/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4553893/
    - s_dev 7y ago
      From the abstract of your paper: Recent studies have shown that nicotine can affect several important steps in the development of cancer
      - EpicEng 7y ago
        Also from the paper >At present, it is not possible to draw a conclusion whether nicotine itself may act as a complete carcinogen If you're going to quote it, include the bits that don't agree with you as well. The paper basically says "it may affect the role of other cancer causing agents, but we're not sure yet. We cannot say that nicotine is, in and of itself, a carcinogen" Also reach back in time 30 minutes and remember that you claimed nicotine is, by itself, a "well known carcinogen", which is false.
- coder4life 7y ago
  Nicotine is NOT a carcinogenic. Lots of things in a cigarette are, but not the one thing that people want from it. https://blog.dana-farber.org/insight/2018/07/nicotine-cause-cancer/ https://blog.dana-farber.org/insight/2018/07/nicotine-cause-...
- wil421 7y ago
  The local news and hospitals were citing a recent upward trend in the numbers of teens with a certain lung symptom. They linked it to vaping in teens. At the very end of the segment they said the lung issue could be caused by nicotine alone being inhaled, didn’t matter it if was vape or smoke.
  - EpicEng 7y ago
    Which would be a ridiculous use case. Everything is deadly at a high enough dose. No one in their right mind is vaping pure nicotine. It could kill you via skin absorption alone.
- dragonwriter 7y ago
  It's an immunosuppressant. Which can be useful at times, but the immune system has an important function and you probably don't want it suppressed except as a specific measured response to a particular problem.
- fucking_tragedy 7y ago
  Nicotine is a stimulant, and stimulants are not without side-effects. There isn't a stimulant known that doesn't put stress on the cardiovascular system. Nicotine increases blood pressure, heart rate and vasoconstriction. Reminder that a low-grade stimulant like caffeine is considered to have deleterious effects.

AndrewBissell 7y ago

Yes, processed vegetable oils and extracted pea & soy proteins are worse for you than ground beef.

hombre_fatal 7y ago

Yeah, I don't understand why people suddenly act like they're nutrition min-maxers when it comes to this subject.

aries1980 7y ago
Like every kind of nutrition would have the same effect in everyone. Extrapolating data of some thousands of people to 5 continents of all ages…

prpl 7y ago

Not all ground beef is bottom of the barrel ground beef. Obviously buying the cheapest thing in a 10 lb tube isn't exactly a recipe for success, but let's be honest, the Beyond Impossible crowd probably wasn't purchasing that to begin with.

teetermld 7y ago

> Americans switching from beef to plant-based patties would be equivalent to taking 12 million cars off the road for an entire year. But they point out 372 million people not eating meat is the same as 12 million cars off the road for 1 year! Where do they get these garbage numbers?

outside1234 7y ago
CO2 numbers for each and division?
weaksauce 7y ago
probably analysis of the carbon emissions that beef and beef externalities produce compared to the average emission of a typical car and then aggregate that into a single comparison to highlight just how much beef and beef production emits to the environment.

balls187 7y ago

Actually misses the point entirely. Comparing a Beef patty to a Beyond Meat patty shows roughly comparable macro nutritional values. [1],[2] Beyond Meat "wins" in that it does not have any cholesterol, and no trans fats. But each has comparable calories, and fat levels. (Though it should be noted that Beyond Meat is most likely much better for the environment oz for oz). The issue that the Whole Foods CEO is taking is that Beyond Meat is marketed as a healthy alternative to meat. It is only marginally more healthy at best. Replace a cheese burger with Beyond Meat and you still have something that is unhealthy. I'd liken this to the same diet fad marketing that vegetarian food was healthier. This lead to Americans believing they were being healthy while over consuming pastas and other processed grains simply because they omitted the meat. 1: https://www.beyondmeat.com/products/the-beyond-burger/ https://www.beyondmeat.com/products/the-beyond-burger/ 2: https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/usda/ground-beef-(85%25-lean---15%25-fat-patty-cooked-broiled)?portionid=46541&portionamount=4.000 https://www.fatsecret.com/calories-nutrition/usda/ground-bee...

coder4life 7y ago
How is "marginally more healthy _at_ best" defined? Vegetarian food is healthier, and reduces all cause mortality. Here's one of many studies that say so: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31387433 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31387433
- balls187 7y ago
  The study is about plant-based diets, not "vegetarian food." I don't have access to the article, so I'm not sure what they define as a plant-based diet, but Harvard defines them as a diet focused mostly on plants, not one that omits meat (vegetarian) and/or animal products completely (Vegan). I wouldn't argue a diet based around plants is more healthy than one that is not, but I wouldn't generalize and say vegetarian (read: no meat) is more healthy than one that does involve meat. > How is "marginally more healthy _at_ best" defined? Just comparing the nutritional values between 4oz of beef vs 4oz of Beyond Meat.
- simonsarris 7y ago
  No it isn't, and that study isn't even about vegetarians. Studies done in the USA can have very disparate conclusions because questionnaire studies are terrible w.r.t. diet "in your study, "The ARIC study did not assess whether participants were following a plant‐based diet.", the average person eats insanely unhealthy (> 70% overweight) and the average american's idea of meat is basically fried bread with condiment levels of meat. It's further confounded because vegetarians are usually higher SES or conscientious about what they're eating in the first place. So you would expect to find studies disputing this and also studies that find the health effects of vegetarian diets are not unique. And you do: (2012) Vegetarian diets, low-meat diets and health: a review. Public Health Nutr 15: 2287–2294. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22717188 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22717188 > CONCLUSIONS: The health benefits of vegetarian diets are not unique. Prudent plant-based dietary patterns which also allow small intakes of red meat, fish and dairy products have demonstrated significant improvements in health status as well. At this time an optimal dietary intake for health status is unknown. Plant-based diets contain a host of food and nutrients known to have independent health benefits. While vegetarian diets have not shown any adverse effects on health, restrictive and monotonous vegetarian diets may result in nutrient deficiencies with deleterious effects on health. For this reason, appropriate advice is important to ensure a vegetarian diet is nutritionally adequate especially for vulnerable groups. 2017 study shows "no evidence that following a vegetarian diet, semi-vegetarian diet or a pesco-vegetarian diet has an independent protective effect on all-cause mortality": https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28040519/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28040519/ An Austrian study suggests vegetarians are less healthy and have a lower quality of life, and higher rates of mental illness: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0088278&type=printable https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/jo... In Australia, which I think has one of the highest meat intakes in the world, "We found no evidence that following a vegetarian diet, semi-vegetarian diet or a pesco-vegetarian diet has an independent protective effect on all-cause mortality." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28040519?dopt=Abstract https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28040519?dopt=Abstract

yumraj 7y ago

> Fake burgers are a transition and off-ramp for people looking to eat less meat. This is similar to the argument for vaping vs. smoking, and just yesterday there was report, and have been in the past, about the harm caused by the other chemicals in vaping liquid which IMO may make it worse than smoking. The question is, are we going to find out soon that the additives in these fake meat burgers are worse (or at least equally bad) for health than real meat?

erikpukinskis 7y ago
The additives are not new. So probably not, but maybe.
coder4life 7y ago
Vaping isn't worse than smoking. Take it from a pack a day for 27 years smoker who just started vaping 2 months ago. I don't wake up any longer coughing so hard the neighborhood can hear it. There are 1,300 deaths in the US every day from smoking. Are these in the papers? You know the answer to that. There has been 1 reported death by the CDC from vaping, and people are losing their minds over it. We don't even know if it was because of vaping; we know that someone got sick, and they smoked a vaporizer.
EpicEng 7y ago
>which IMO may make it worse than smoking. This stuff isn't subjective. No one with any amount of credibility attached to their name is making that claim, so what's your basis for it?

bagacrap 7y ago

The title of the article states that meat alternatives are good for the environment so how did you arrive at the conclusion that this in any way denies the impact of the meat trade on the environment?