5 ms·

Most engineers with jobs aren't making compromises on the price when their goal is comfort and usability.

by notus 7y ago

whitehouse3 7y ago
You're right. I bought a $250 Leopold FC660C to combat repetitive strain injury, because my doctor said to minimize the distance between the home row and my mouse pad. But most less-expensive 60% ("ten key-less") boards either lack arrow keys or have obnoxious, loud switches. These weren't feasible because I use arrow keys all the time for Visual Studio and I work in open-office hell. The Leopold has quiet Topre switches. I'd buy a $15 keyboard in a heartbeat if it wouldn't hurt my wrists. But for me, the Leopold is a medical device. I would have paid twice as much for it, which has nothing to do with the key switches at all. In fact, I did pay 2x for it because I bought one for my home system as well.
- vcanales 7y ago
  As a user of the New Poker II 60% and other 60% keyboards, arrow keys are usually one dip switch/macro away. I also use brown dampened switches and they’re not noisy.
- wilsonnb3 7y ago
  For what it's worth there are many cheaper options that would work for you. For anyone else looking to reduce the distance between mousepad and keyboard, this size is usually called 84-key, 75%, or 80%. They have all of the keys that a tenkeyless has but laid out in such a way that the keyboard is significantly less wide. this one is relatively cheap (they used to sell an even cheaper one that I currently own, which has off brand switched instead of cherry mx) https://www.amazon.com/DREVO-Excalibur-Mechanical-Keyboard-Specially/dp/B01N6GBUQE/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=drevo+84&qid=1567528824&s=gateway&sr=8-3 https://www.amazon.com/DREVO-Excalibur-Mechanical-Keyboard-S...
  - whitehouse3 7y ago
    Thank you for this. I haven't scanned the market lately so I entirely missed this new crop of smaller boards. Nomenclature was the big hurdle I had to clear when searching for a keyboard. I didn't know what these boards were called until a fellow engineer introduced me. I'm sure "84-key" will be a helpful keyword to someone else reading this thread.
- castlecrasher2 7y ago
  I don't mean to intrude or otherwise question you but have you looked into weightlifting as a solution? I used to get RSI pretty bad, and had back problems until about four years ago when I did heavy (two-hours a day, six days a week) weightlifting for a few months. Haven't had it since.
  - whitehouse3 7y ago
    Thank you for mentioning this. That's a great data point and I will look into this further.
    - mirekrusin 7y ago
      Bikram yoga (likely any yoga also) helps as well quite quickly.
      - notus 7y ago
        I think yoga complements any strength training program really well. Flexibility is very important for weight lifting if you want to avoid long term injuries.
- Symbiote 7y ago
  Both my Microsoft and Logitech ergonomic keyboards are wearing out, so I spent some time last week looking for a replacement. Logitech seem no longer to make one, and Microsoft's has laptop keys, which I find very uncomfortable. This site [1] has a quick gallery, and this[2] Github page a lot more (including many niche or kit ones). The Kinesis Freestyle <whatever> looked like a good option, but I decided to try one of the nerdy ones, so I've ordered a VE.A clone from AliExpress. I found both of these pages through the /r/MechanicalKeyboards wiki [3]. That community has a lot of posts and comments of people showing off gamer/geek/nerd stuff, but also seems to give reasonable advice to "normal" people wanting advice. [1] http://xahlee.info/kbd/ergonomic_keyboards_index.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/ergonomic_keyboards_index.html [2] https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards/blob/master/README.md https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards/blob/mas... [3] https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/wiki/buying_guide https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/wiki/buying_gui...
  - fyfy18 7y ago
    I have a Microsoft Sculpt keyboard and it's probably the best keyboard I've used in a long time. The hand position is really comfortable and the keys have a nice response that isn't too laptopy (I prefer low travel keys). My only complaints are: - No caps lock indicator - Fn keys are a bit small, and I prefer a Fn button as opposed to a switch - Uses a proprietary dongle instead of Bluetooth Maybe one day I'll get an ErgoDox, but I need to figure out what switches I like first...
    - Symbiote 7y ago
      A colleague uses a Sculpt, so I did try it, but the key travel is such a long way from my (wearing out) Logitech Cordless Desktop Pro: that's from about 2004, and has tall keys [1]. Perhaps you could use a tiny widget that shows the caps lock status next to the clock? I ordered Cherry MX Browns, which seemed like a fairly standard choice — red for gamers, brown for typists. I just hope they're not too loud. [1] http://d2ydh70d4b5xgv.cloudfront.net/images/8/d/logitech-cordless-desktop-pro-wireless-keyboard-y-rj7-with-receiver-dongle-8df07135b411e983b5e628ec1d5f6c35.jpg http://d2ydh70d4b5xgv.cloudfront.net/images/8/d/logitech-cor...
- mixmastamyk 7y ago
  I really like the wasd "ten-keyless" keyboards: http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/mechanical-keyboard/wasd-v3-87-key-custom-mechanical-keyboard.html http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/mechanical-k... Red switches are quiet.
- caseymarquis 7y ago
  Have you looked into the VSVim extension? It's a bit of extra effort to learn vim, but you'll never have to reach for the arrow keys again. You'll also need to map your escape key to Caps Lock. You can use AutoHotkey for this with this script: https://www.dropbox.com/s/c6t9sj3fygtre6h/AutoHotKey.ahk https://www.dropbox.com/s/c6t9sj3fygtre6h/AutoHotKey.ahk Vim basically allows you to trade mental effort for hand movement. Over time, the mental effort goes away, but the saved movement lasts forever.
  - whitehouse3 7y ago
    vim is my default text editor. And there is a dip switch on my Leopold FC660C that swaps ESC and CAPSLOCK (it even ships with alternative key caps to match this change). But VS has so many shortcut "chords" that depend on HJKL that I can't juggle both paradigms at once. When my brain is in "vim-mode", I'm constant hitting ESC -> ':' to trigger commands. I had the same issue with Atom, Sublime, and VSCode extensions that mimic vim too.
- benfrancom 7y ago
  I had rsi as well, so bad I couldn't shake anyone's hand. I thought my wrist was broken. What fixed it for me was to drop the keyboard down onto my lap using a lapdesk. It took me forever to find this out, and there is research behind the ergonomics: http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/ergoguide.html http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/ergoguide.html http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/AHTutorials/typingposture.html http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/AHTutorials/typingposture.html In my opionion, it's worth a good read-through. I also switched to an Evoluent vertical mouse and a Goldtouch split/angled keyboard w/o the numeric pad to minimize back-and-forth. Now I use lapdesk+apple magic keyboard+Evoluent vertical mouse, and don't really have any problems.
- Oreb 7y ago
  I think a 75% keyboard like the Vortex Race 3 would suit your needs: https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=455 https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_lis...
kazinator 7y ago
Speaking of engineers and jobs, it's part of an engineer's job description to make compromises on cost. I've never seen a mechanical keyboard that wasn't loud; let alone silent. (The thread topic is noise, not comfort or usability.) That doesn't mean they don't exist. Maybe if I rubbed shoulders more with the high society, I might get access to some invitation-only showroom for exotic keyboards where $14K will get you a whisper-silent unit. I do have one almost absolutely silent keyboard. It's quite awful to type on. Basically it's one of those flexible rubber keyboards for industrial environments, where there are spill and dust hazards. I use it at night, not to disturb anyone. I optimized for sound at the cost of comfort.
- eukaryote31 7y ago
  Most silent mechanical keyboards are about the same cost as clicky ones.
  - kazinator 7y ago
    Great; I'm in Vancouver, Canada; where can I walk into a brick-and-mortar store to try one?
    - PascLeRasc 7y ago
      Memory Express has a pretty good selection, I'd try there.
      - kazinator 7y ago
        I was at a ME not long ago; I tried my hands on everything on display; they all make a sound. Some are good about not making a sound when the switch goes down, but the key makes a sound when bouncing back up, if your finger is completely off it. Space bar keys are particularly bad. A keyboard isn't silent if the space bar isn't.
        grp000 7y ago

Most engineers with jobs aren't making compromises on the price when their goal is comfort and usability.

by notus 7y ago

Most engineers with jobs aren't making compromises on the price when their goal is comfort and usability.

You're right. I bought a $250 Leopold FC660C to combat repetitive strain injury, because my doctor said to minimize the distance between the home row and my mouse pad. But most less-expensive 60% ("ten key-less") boards either lack arrow keys or have obnoxious, loud switches. These weren't feasible because I use arrow keys all the time for Visual Studio and I work in open-office hell. The Leopold has quiet Topre switches. I'd buy a $15 keyboard in a heartbeat if it wouldn't hurt my wrists. But for me, the Leopold is a medical device. I would have paid twice as much for it, which has nothing to do with the key switches at all. In fact, I did pay 2x for it because I bought one for my home system as well.

vcanales 7y ago
As a user of the New Poker II 60% and other 60% keyboards, arrow keys are usually one dip switch/macro away. I also use brown dampened switches and they’re not noisy.
wilsonnb3 7y ago
For what it's worth there are many cheaper options that would work for you. For anyone else looking to reduce the distance between mousepad and keyboard, this size is usually called 84-key, 75%, or 80%. They have all of the keys that a tenkeyless has but laid out in such a way that the keyboard is significantly less wide. this one is relatively cheap (they used to sell an even cheaper one that I currently own, which has off brand switched instead of cherry mx) https://www.amazon.com/DREVO-Excalibur-Mechanical-Keyboard-Specially/dp/B01N6GBUQE/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=drevo+84&qid=1567528824&s=gateway&sr=8-3 https://www.amazon.com/DREVO-Excalibur-Mechanical-Keyboard-S...
- whitehouse3 7y ago
  Thank you for this. I haven't scanned the market lately so I entirely missed this new crop of smaller boards. Nomenclature was the big hurdle I had to clear when searching for a keyboard. I didn't know what these boards were called until a fellow engineer introduced me. I'm sure "84-key" will be a helpful keyword to someone else reading this thread.
castlecrasher2 7y ago
I don't mean to intrude or otherwise question you but have you looked into weightlifting as a solution? I used to get RSI pretty bad, and had back problems until about four years ago when I did heavy (two-hours a day, six days a week) weightlifting for a few months. Haven't had it since.
- whitehouse3 7y ago
  Thank you for mentioning this. That's a great data point and I will look into this further.
  - mirekrusin 7y ago
    Bikram yoga (likely any yoga also) helps as well quite quickly.
    - notus 7y ago
      I think yoga complements any strength training program really well. Flexibility is very important for weight lifting if you want to avoid long term injuries.
Symbiote 7y ago
Both my Microsoft and Logitech ergonomic keyboards are wearing out, so I spent some time last week looking for a replacement. Logitech seem no longer to make one, and Microsoft's has laptop keys, which I find very uncomfortable. This site [1] has a quick gallery, and this[2] Github page a lot more (including many niche or kit ones). The Kinesis Freestyle <whatever> looked like a good option, but I decided to try one of the nerdy ones, so I've ordered a VE.A clone from AliExpress. I found both of these pages through the /r/MechanicalKeyboards wiki [3]. That community has a lot of posts and comments of people showing off gamer/geek/nerd stuff, but also seems to give reasonable advice to "normal" people wanting advice. [1] http://xahlee.info/kbd/ergonomic_keyboards_index.html http://xahlee.info/kbd/ergonomic_keyboards_index.html [2] https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards/blob/master/README.md https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards/blob/mas... [3] https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/wiki/buying_guide https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/wiki/buying_gui...
- fyfy18 7y ago
  I have a Microsoft Sculpt keyboard and it's probably the best keyboard I've used in a long time. The hand position is really comfortable and the keys have a nice response that isn't too laptopy (I prefer low travel keys). My only complaints are: - No caps lock indicator - Fn keys are a bit small, and I prefer a Fn button as opposed to a switch - Uses a proprietary dongle instead of Bluetooth Maybe one day I'll get an ErgoDox, but I need to figure out what switches I like first...
  - Symbiote 7y ago
    A colleague uses a Sculpt, so I did try it, but the key travel is such a long way from my (wearing out) Logitech Cordless Desktop Pro: that's from about 2004, and has tall keys [1]. Perhaps you could use a tiny widget that shows the caps lock status next to the clock? I ordered Cherry MX Browns, which seemed like a fairly standard choice — red for gamers, brown for typists. I just hope they're not too loud. [1] http://d2ydh70d4b5xgv.cloudfront.net/images/8/d/logitech-cordless-desktop-pro-wireless-keyboard-y-rj7-with-receiver-dongle-8df07135b411e983b5e628ec1d5f6c35.jpg http://d2ydh70d4b5xgv.cloudfront.net/images/8/d/logitech-cor...
mixmastamyk 7y ago
I really like the wasd "ten-keyless" keyboards: http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/mechanical-keyboard/wasd-v3-87-key-custom-mechanical-keyboard.html http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/mechanical-k... Red switches are quiet.
caseymarquis 7y ago
Have you looked into the VSVim extension? It's a bit of extra effort to learn vim, but you'll never have to reach for the arrow keys again. You'll also need to map your escape key to Caps Lock. You can use AutoHotkey for this with this script: https://www.dropbox.com/s/c6t9sj3fygtre6h/AutoHotKey.ahk https://www.dropbox.com/s/c6t9sj3fygtre6h/AutoHotKey.ahk Vim basically allows you to trade mental effort for hand movement. Over time, the mental effort goes away, but the saved movement lasts forever.
- whitehouse3 7y ago
  vim is my default text editor. And there is a dip switch on my Leopold FC660C that swaps ESC and CAPSLOCK (it even ships with alternative key caps to match this change). But VS has so many shortcut "chords" that depend on HJKL that I can't juggle both paradigms at once. When my brain is in "vim-mode", I'm constant hitting ESC -> ':' to trigger commands. I had the same issue with Atom, Sublime, and VSCode extensions that mimic vim too.
benfrancom 7y ago
I had rsi as well, so bad I couldn't shake anyone's hand. I thought my wrist was broken. What fixed it for me was to drop the keyboard down onto my lap using a lapdesk. It took me forever to find this out, and there is research behind the ergonomics: http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/ergoguide.html http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/ergoguide.html http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/AHTutorials/typingposture.html http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/AHTutorials/typingposture.html In my opionion, it's worth a good read-through. I also switched to an Evoluent vertical mouse and a Goldtouch split/angled keyboard w/o the numeric pad to minimize back-and-forth. Now I use lapdesk+apple magic keyboard+Evoluent vertical mouse, and don't really have any problems.
Oreb 7y ago
I think a 75% keyboard like the Vortex Race 3 would suit your needs: https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_list&c=455 https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_lis...

kazinator 7y ago

Speaking of engineers and jobs, it's part of an engineer's job description to make compromises on cost. I've never seen a mechanical keyboard that wasn't loud; let alone silent. (The thread topic is noise, not comfort or usability.) That doesn't mean they don't exist. Maybe if I rubbed shoulders more with the high society, I might get access to some invitation-only showroom for exotic keyboards where $14K will get you a whisper-silent unit. I do have one almost absolutely silent keyboard. It's quite awful to type on. Basically it's one of those flexible rubber keyboards for industrial environments, where there are spill and dust hazards. I use it at night, not to disturb anyone. I optimized for sound at the cost of comfort.

eukaryote31 7y ago
Most silent mechanical keyboards are about the same cost as clicky ones.
- kazinator 7y ago
  Great; I'm in Vancouver, Canada; where can I walk into a brick-and-mortar store to try one?
  - PascLeRasc 7y ago
    Memory Express has a pretty good selection, I'd try there.
    - kazinator 7y ago
      I was at a ME not long ago; I tried my hands on everything on display; they all make a sound. Some are good about not making a sound when the switch goes down, but the key makes a sound when bouncing back up, if your finger is completely off it. Space bar keys are particularly bad. A keyboard isn't silent if the space bar isn't.
      - grp000 7y ago