10 ms·

Life in an Internet Shutdown

116 points by laurex 7y ago

sneystein 7y ago
For some reason nytimes doesen't want you to read them in incognito mode. Luckily they simply hide the article afterwards with JavaScript, and can be read without it
- the_duke 7y ago
  The reason is that they don't want you to circumvent the free article limit.
- m-p-3 7y ago
  The formatting is slightly messed up, but it's on IPFS now - https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmTDqDoJv2UkHjYYYiTWNTEW8J9dBDvaM8dP7So5LbKtqC/ https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmTDqDoJv2UkHjYYYiTWNTEW8J9dBDvaM8dP7So... - https://cloudflare-ipfs.com/ipfs/QmTDqDoJv2UkHjYYYiTWNTEW8J9dBDvaM8dP7So5LbKtqC/ https://cloudflare-ipfs.com/ipfs/QmTDqDoJv2UkHjYYYiTWNTEW8J9...
  - mpfundstein 7y ago
    slick! do you know how can i search ipfs?
    - momack2 7y ago
      https://www.ipse.io/ https://www.ipse.io/ is one of the various IPFS search engines - but it doesn't look like it's indexed this article yet...
telesilla 7y ago
This is happening right now in Kashmir. https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/08/28/india-restore-kashmirs-internet-phones https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/08/28/india-restore-kashmirs-i... It really makes me wonder whether a strong movement towards mesh networks could resolve this. What are the ways authorities could block a community network? At least information could be spread this way, and might have saved the Zimbabwean journalist.
- kuu 7y ago
  Kashmir it's mentioned in the article. It also mentions this, which I found surprisingly high: In all, more than a quarter of the world’s nations have used the tactic at one point or another over the past four years.
- taurath 7y ago
  Signal jamming. Transmission detection vans to find base c&c stations. Device confiscation and outlawing.
  - shubb 7y ago
    Laser mesh... There is an ongoing fight between the UK radio regulator and illegal radio stations. The regulator has detector vans, so it's a similar situation to what you describe. They can find transmittors, but their objective is to find the studio, which needs a live link to the transmitter. As I understand it, the pirates break out onto the roof of tall buildings, especially public housing towers, and place transmitters. These will be found, so they gotta have a way of linking them back to home. Sure, they could use mobile data (has its own opsec problems), or hacked residential wifi and a VPN (add real prisong itme of a hacking charge to the sheet when you get court). Apparently what they often do is use a cantena link - a focussed beam of wifi to some distant place, which can be very difficult to pinpoint accurately. I also saw a doc where they used lasers. These days though, I think a lot of them just stream on the internet.
    - mgreenleaf 7y ago
      Do you have urls for any sources? sounds like an interesting read.
      - Aromasin 7y ago
        Other than the pirate stations around London, they're not quite as proliferate as they once were with the advent of the internet. They have a colourful history in the UK however, with some stations broadcasting from international waters in the 60's just off the UK to circumvent the monopoly the BBC and record companies had on music. I highly recommend watching 'The Boat That Rocked' for a good comedy based on it. Below are some interesting reads on the culture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_radio_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_radio_in_the_United_Kin... https://www.transdiffusion.org/2008/08/01/on_the_run_the https://www.transdiffusion.org/2008/08/01/on_the_run_the http://www.thepiratearchive.net/ http://www.thepiratearchive.net/ https://web.archive.org/web/20090324075718/http://www.freewebs.com/g1hbe/andromeda.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20090324075718/http://www.freewe...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
furioushatter 7y ago
With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censured,the first thought forbidden,the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably -picard
- goda90 7y ago
  Well actually he's quoting the judge father of the woman interrogating him. But still a great line :)
  - shkkmo 7y ago
    Well actually that attribution is purely fictional. In reality the quote is properly attributed to Picard because Picard is the first fictional character to actually say the quote.
    - c22 7y ago
      I'm not convinced that a "direct" quote from a fictional character bears any more weight in reality than a fictional attribution to another fictional character. Shouldn't the quote be attributed to the show writer(s)?
      - shkkmo 7y ago
        It is a silly distinction, but: In reality, millions of real people have observed Picard uttering that quote while zero real people have observed the judge's father uttering that quote.
        c22 7y ago
        If we're making silly distinctions, in reality those people saw Patrick Stewart utter the quote.
        shkkmo 7y ago
        I would argue that it is not remotely silly to make a distinction between phrases uttered by an individual and phrases uttered by an individual playing a character (especially with pre-written lines). I would be far more comfortable attributing the quote to the writers of that episode than to Patrick Stewart. However, in practice, it is difficult to attribute specific lines to specific writers given how scripts are produced. As such, lines are generally attributed to the characters that speak them.
ACosmicDust 7y ago
A Kashmiri can tell what it feels like. Source: I am Kashmiri
- tantalor 7y ago
  Elaborate?
  - pferde 7y ago
    Just doing a websearch on "kashmir internet shutdown" yields a plethora of "elaboration". Gotta be a bit active when looking for information, instead of just waiting for it to fall in your lap.
    - tantalor 7y ago
      What? The commenter volunteered they could provide first hand details... Isn't that better than second hand news sources?
      - ocschwar 7y ago
        And could get locked up for doing so.
      - mitchtbaum 7y ago
        find the others
    - mkr-hn 7y ago
      I took their "Elaborate?" as a request to hear a HN user's perspective on the situation. Any old account off Google will do if you want a broad overview, but one from the kind of people who visit HN might have some valuable insight that's useful to the community.
  - csande17 7y ago
    You'll have to wait for his internet to come back on.
baxtr 7y ago
At first, I read "Life is an Internet Shutdown", and dismissed it quickly as new wave/internet absence article telling me, that real life is only possible when my internet is broken...
qubex 7y ago
I was struck by one anecdote in the article, relating to Zimbabwe’s internet shutdown in the midst of a banknote shortage, which left many Zimbabweans unable to use the internet-based cash-analogue they habitually used in lieu of cash, and how this caused one businessman to “throw away half of his perishable goods”. WTF? Sell them on a “credit basis”! At worst you get nothing (which is equivalent to throwing them away, monetarily, with the added advantage that you actually are helping keep people fed) and in the best case leads to people settling their debt once the crisis has passed.
- BrentOzar 7y ago
  > Sell them on a “credit basis”! In cultures where cash is king, broke people don't go to the store. They're not used to the store offering them credit.
  - freddie_mercury 7y ago
    I live in a developing country where cash is king. In my experience in cash cultures, stores offering credit is extremely common. Your sweeping generalization is not just wrong but unnecessary. We're talking specifically about Zimbabwe, so all that matters is what is common in Zimbabwe and not what other countries do or do not do.
    - mcny 7y ago
      > Your sweeping generalization is not just wrong but unnecessary. We're talking specifically about Zimbabwe, so all that matters is what is common in Zimbabwe and not what other countries do or do not do. I wouldn't be so hard on the grandparent. Cunningham's Law states "the best way to get the right answer on the internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong answer." My understanding is that stores do not offer credit to whoever just shows up. You need to build credibility or at least knows someone who knows the store keep. I imagine if I were a shopkeeper and I had a choice between selling on credit to random people vs throwing something away, I'd probably throw it away or if I sold it, I'd want to mark it as money I won't get. I don't know why some random person would come back to me to repay me. Not that I know anything about Zimbabwe (my only interaction is with people who fled the country so I acknowledge my perspective is probably biased hence I won't try to make further sweeping generalizations about the government there).
Multicomp 7y ago
I like how we supposedly have the serval mesh project but no APKs available any more or ever in iOS. I just wish we'd all pick one like Briar or Bridgefy to be the good enough default. Heck, F Droid has Meshenger but it barely worked. Firechat and bridgefy are closed source so therefore compromised, so this is not an easy solve.
- smush 7y ago
  You are correct that the APK download at https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.servalproject&hl=en https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.servalproj... is dead. However, you can still download it from https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.servalproject/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.servalproject/ RE: Briar, I've tested it before. It's a promising app idea, and generally has good UI, but I ran into a few issues I'll post for consideration/refutation. My results were hit or miss as to whether messages would get delivered if both apps were open, one was open, one was closed, one or both were online, offline, or a mix. It's unclear as to whether it is supposed to work 'online' via Tor nodes or not, the documentation is confusing. Getting an answer to the question "will this work over normal cellular data?" has no definitive answer.
- lufte 7y ago
  I didn't know about Serval, Briar nor Bridgefy. I did know about Firechat, and there's also p2pkit [1] but this one is closed source as well. [1] - http://p2pkit.io/ http://p2pkit.io/
mcdingle 7y ago
Anyone catch the guy with the Namecheap shirt on?
arsalanb 7y ago
Indian Occupied Kashmir faces internet shutdowns very often [1], for months on end. People are regularly arrested for voicing their opinion on social media and booked under draconian laws. I was traveling to Kashmir (my home) recently and my whatsapp and phone image gallery was checked at the airport by Indian occupational forces. There is also mass media propaganda that claims "everything is alright" in kashmir, when in reality India has been worse than a barbaric dictatorship [2] (fueled by jingoism and racism) in Kashmir. [1] - https://internetshutdowns.in https://internetshutdowns.in [2] - https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/IN/DevelopmentsInKashmirJune2016ToApril2018.pdf https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/IN/DevelopmentsInK...
butterNaN 7y ago
Infoamtion is a necessity, but disinformation is a weapon. I have lived in an Internet Shutdown that lasted for about a week. I was actually thankful for it. Don't get me wrong, It was inconvenient to say the least, but it probably saved thirty-odd lives. You have to actually live in a tense environment (and be a minority) to understand how quickly misinformation and rumours can be spread that incite extreme violence and then counter-violence. Facebook/WhatsApp isn't very good at quickly taking down rumours, and people are easy to get charged when in an emotional state. The percentage of people who keep calm and let the situation die down is miniscule. Reg. Kashmir, there have already been multiple instances fake videos/images shared by influential people, let alone everyday folks, within the last month (I'll put up links below later). You can only imagine the amount of inflammatory disinformation being shared by normal people. This stuff has already spread quicker than it is usually debunked, so the damage is already there.
- sbmthakur 7y ago
  True. Shekhar Gupta explained in a recent video about how dangerous rumors and rumor-mongers can be. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=27&v=wqzCU1Y36ww https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=27&v=wqzCU1Y36ww
ican1 7y ago
The racism is actually shown by Kashmiri Muslims who ethnically cleansed Kashmiri Hindus. Hundreds of thousands of Hindus were forced to leave the Kashmir Valley.[1] Hundreds of Hindu temples were destroyed.[2][3] Even now they're forcing people from other Indian states to leave.[4] If the behavior of Indian forces is really as bad as it is claimed then why no large scale migration of Kashmiri Muslims happened like it happened for Kashmiri Hindus or Rohingyas[5]? [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Kashmiri_Hindus https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Kashmiri_Hindus [2]https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/208-temples-destroyed-in-kashmir-in-20-years-says-j-k-government.488457/&ved=2ahUKEwiKueLI9LTkAhUmhOAKHdb7AZgQFjACegQIDxAJ&usg=AOvVaw3WE1KoiPqrpal5K5fFkVwn https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/208-temples-destroyed-in-kash... [3]https://www.google.com/amp/s/arisebharat.com/2019/02/13/a-list-of-temples-destroyed-in-the-kashmir-valley-between-1986-1996/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/arisebharat.com/2019/02/13/a-li... [4]https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2019/08/workers-kashmir-told-leave-demography-fears-190825140146087.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2019... [5]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_conflict https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_conflict
- jcranmer 7y ago
  > If the behavior of Indian forces is really as bad as it is claimed then why no large scale migration of Kashmiri Muslims happened like it happened for Kashmiri Hindus or Rohingyas[5]? A plausible answer (I know not if this is true or not) is that the Indian security forces are preventing people from emigrating. This is why you don't see a massive exodus of Uighurs from Xinjiang, for example.
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't use HN for nationalistic flamewar. At least the parent comment had something to do with the topic. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20866359 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20866359 and marked it off-topic.
  - ican1 7y ago
    How can the parent topic be something to do with the topic but this comment is not? How can one talk about the Kashmir conflict without discussing it's history? There's regularly discussions about various political/controversial topics in HN without them getting shut down. You are really showing your bias here, dang.

116 points by laurex 7y ago

For some reason nytimes doesen't want you to read them in incognito mode. Luckily they simply hide the article afterwards with JavaScript, and can be read without it

the_duke 7y ago
The reason is that they don't want you to circumvent the free article limit.
m-p-3 7y ago
The formatting is slightly messed up, but it's on IPFS now - https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmTDqDoJv2UkHjYYYiTWNTEW8J9dBDvaM8dP7So5LbKtqC/ https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmTDqDoJv2UkHjYYYiTWNTEW8J9dBDvaM8dP7So... - https://cloudflare-ipfs.com/ipfs/QmTDqDoJv2UkHjYYYiTWNTEW8J9dBDvaM8dP7So5LbKtqC/ https://cloudflare-ipfs.com/ipfs/QmTDqDoJv2UkHjYYYiTWNTEW8J9...
- mpfundstein 7y ago
  slick! do you know how can i search ipfs?
  - momack2 7y ago
    https://www.ipse.io/ https://www.ipse.io/ is one of the various IPFS search engines - but it doesn't look like it's indexed this article yet...

telesilla 7y ago

This is happening right now in Kashmir. https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/08/28/india-restore-kashmirs-internet-phones https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/08/28/india-restore-kashmirs-i... It really makes me wonder whether a strong movement towards mesh networks could resolve this. What are the ways authorities could block a community network? At least information could be spread this way, and might have saved the Zimbabwean journalist.

kuu 7y ago
Kashmir it's mentioned in the article. It also mentions this, which I found surprisingly high: In all, more than a quarter of the world’s nations have used the tactic at one point or another over the past four years.
taurath 7y ago
Signal jamming. Transmission detection vans to find base c&c stations. Device confiscation and outlawing.
- shubb 7y ago
  Laser mesh... There is an ongoing fight between the UK radio regulator and illegal radio stations. The regulator has detector vans, so it's a similar situation to what you describe. They can find transmittors, but their objective is to find the studio, which needs a live link to the transmitter. As I understand it, the pirates break out onto the roof of tall buildings, especially public housing towers, and place transmitters. These will be found, so they gotta have a way of linking them back to home. Sure, they could use mobile data (has its own opsec problems), or hacked residential wifi and a VPN (add real prisong itme of a hacking charge to the sheet when you get court). Apparently what they often do is use a cantena link - a focussed beam of wifi to some distant place, which can be very difficult to pinpoint accurately. I also saw a doc where they used lasers. These days though, I think a lot of them just stream on the internet.
  - mgreenleaf 7y ago
    Do you have urls for any sources? sounds like an interesting read.
    - Aromasin 7y ago
      Other than the pirate stations around London, they're not quite as proliferate as they once were with the advent of the internet. They have a colourful history in the UK however, with some stations broadcasting from international waters in the 60's just off the UK to circumvent the monopoly the BBC and record companies had on music. I highly recommend watching 'The Boat That Rocked' for a good comedy based on it. Below are some interesting reads on the culture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_radio_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_radio_in_the_United_Kin... https://www.transdiffusion.org/2008/08/01/on_the_run_the https://www.transdiffusion.org/2008/08/01/on_the_run_the http://www.thepiratearchive.net/ http://www.thepiratearchive.net/ https://web.archive.org/web/20090324075718/http://www.freewebs.com/g1hbe/andromeda.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20090324075718/http://www.freewe...

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

furioushatter 7y ago

With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censured,the first thought forbidden,the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably -picard

goda90 7y ago
Well actually he's quoting the judge father of the woman interrogating him. But still a great line :)
- shkkmo 7y ago
  Well actually that attribution is purely fictional. In reality the quote is properly attributed to Picard because Picard is the first fictional character to actually say the quote.
  - c22 7y ago
    I'm not convinced that a "direct" quote from a fictional character bears any more weight in reality than a fictional attribution to another fictional character. Shouldn't the quote be attributed to the show writer(s)?
    - shkkmo 7y ago
      It is a silly distinction, but: In reality, millions of real people have observed Picard uttering that quote while zero real people have observed the judge's father uttering that quote.
      - c22 7y ago
        If we're making silly distinctions, in reality those people saw Patrick Stewart utter the quote.
        shkkmo 7y ago
        I would argue that it is not remotely silly to make a distinction between phrases uttered by an individual and phrases uttered by an individual playing a character (especially with pre-written lines). I would be far more comfortable attributing the quote to the writers of that episode than to Patrick Stewart. However, in practice, it is difficult to attribute specific lines to specific writers given how scripts are produced. As such, lines are generally attributed to the characters that speak them.

ACosmicDust 7y ago

A Kashmiri can tell what it feels like. Source: I am Kashmiri

tantalor 7y ago
Elaborate?
- pferde 7y ago
  Just doing a websearch on "kashmir internet shutdown" yields a plethora of "elaboration". Gotta be a bit active when looking for information, instead of just waiting for it to fall in your lap.
  - tantalor 7y ago
    What? The commenter volunteered they could provide first hand details... Isn't that better than second hand news sources?
    - ocschwar 7y ago
      And could get locked up for doing so.
    - mitchtbaum 7y ago
      find the others
  - mkr-hn 7y ago
    I took their "Elaborate?" as a request to hear a HN user's perspective on the situation. Any old account off Google will do if you want a broad overview, but one from the kind of people who visit HN might have some valuable insight that's useful to the community.
- csande17 7y ago
  You'll have to wait for his internet to come back on.

baxtr 7y ago

At first, I read "Life is an Internet Shutdown", and dismissed it quickly as new wave/internet absence article telling me, that real life is only possible when my internet is broken...

qubex 7y ago

I was struck by one anecdote in the article, relating to Zimbabwe’s internet shutdown in the midst of a banknote shortage, which left many Zimbabweans unable to use the internet-based cash-analogue they habitually used in lieu of cash, and how this caused one businessman to “throw away half of his perishable goods”. WTF? Sell them on a “credit basis”! At worst you get nothing (which is equivalent to throwing them away, monetarily, with the added advantage that you actually are helping keep people fed) and in the best case leads to people settling their debt once the crisis has passed.

BrentOzar 7y ago
> Sell them on a “credit basis”! In cultures where cash is king, broke people don't go to the store. They're not used to the store offering them credit.
- freddie_mercury 7y ago
  I live in a developing country where cash is king. In my experience in cash cultures, stores offering credit is extremely common. Your sweeping generalization is not just wrong but unnecessary. We're talking specifically about Zimbabwe, so all that matters is what is common in Zimbabwe and not what other countries do or do not do.
  - mcny 7y ago
    > Your sweeping generalization is not just wrong but unnecessary. We're talking specifically about Zimbabwe, so all that matters is what is common in Zimbabwe and not what other countries do or do not do. I wouldn't be so hard on the grandparent. Cunningham's Law states "the best way to get the right answer on the internet is not to ask a question; it's to post the wrong answer." My understanding is that stores do not offer credit to whoever just shows up. You need to build credibility or at least knows someone who knows the store keep. I imagine if I were a shopkeeper and I had a choice between selling on credit to random people vs throwing something away, I'd probably throw it away or if I sold it, I'd want to mark it as money I won't get. I don't know why some random person would come back to me to repay me. Not that I know anything about Zimbabwe (my only interaction is with people who fled the country so I acknowledge my perspective is probably biased hence I won't try to make further sweeping generalizations about the government there).

Multicomp 7y ago

I like how we supposedly have the serval mesh project but no APKs available any more or ever in iOS. I just wish we'd all pick one like Briar or Bridgefy to be the good enough default. Heck, F Droid has Meshenger but it barely worked. Firechat and bridgefy are closed source so therefore compromised, so this is not an easy solve.

smush 7y ago
You are correct that the APK download at https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.servalproject&hl=en https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.servalproj... is dead. However, you can still download it from https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.servalproject/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.servalproject/ RE: Briar, I've tested it before. It's a promising app idea, and generally has good UI, but I ran into a few issues I'll post for consideration/refutation. My results were hit or miss as to whether messages would get delivered if both apps were open, one was open, one was closed, one or both were online, offline, or a mix. It's unclear as to whether it is supposed to work 'online' via Tor nodes or not, the documentation is confusing. Getting an answer to the question "will this work over normal cellular data?" has no definitive answer.
lufte 7y ago
I didn't know about Serval, Briar nor Bridgefy. I did know about Firechat, and there's also p2pkit [1] but this one is closed source as well. [1] - http://p2pkit.io/ http://p2pkit.io/

mcdingle 7y ago

Anyone catch the guy with the Namecheap shirt on?

arsalanb 7y ago

Indian Occupied Kashmir faces internet shutdowns very often [1], for months on end. People are regularly arrested for voicing their opinion on social media and booked under draconian laws. I was traveling to Kashmir (my home) recently and my whatsapp and phone image gallery was checked at the airport by Indian occupational forces. There is also mass media propaganda that claims "everything is alright" in kashmir, when in reality India has been worse than a barbaric dictatorship [2] (fueled by jingoism and racism) in Kashmir. [1] - https://internetshutdowns.in https://internetshutdowns.in [2] - https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/IN/DevelopmentsInKashmirJune2016ToApril2018.pdf https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/IN/DevelopmentsInK...

butterNaN 7y ago

Infoamtion is a necessity, but disinformation is a weapon. I have lived in an Internet Shutdown that lasted for about a week. I was actually thankful for it. Don't get me wrong, It was inconvenient to say the least, but it probably saved thirty-odd lives. You have to actually live in a tense environment (and be a minority) to understand how quickly misinformation and rumours can be spread that incite extreme violence and then counter-violence. Facebook/WhatsApp isn't very good at quickly taking down rumours, and people are easy to get charged when in an emotional state. The percentage of people who keep calm and let the situation die down is miniscule. Reg. Kashmir, there have already been multiple instances fake videos/images shared by influential people, let alone everyday folks, within the last month (I'll put up links below later). You can only imagine the amount of inflammatory disinformation being shared by normal people. This stuff has already spread quicker than it is usually debunked, so the damage is already there.

sbmthakur 7y ago
True. Shekhar Gupta explained in a recent video about how dangerous rumors and rumor-mongers can be. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=27&v=wqzCU1Y36ww https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=27&v=wqzCU1Y36ww

ican1 7y ago

The racism is actually shown by Kashmiri Muslims who ethnically cleansed Kashmiri Hindus. Hundreds of thousands of Hindus were forced to leave the Kashmir Valley.[1] Hundreds of Hindu temples were destroyed.[2][3] Even now they're forcing people from other Indian states to leave.[4] If the behavior of Indian forces is really as bad as it is claimed then why no large scale migration of Kashmiri Muslims happened like it happened for Kashmiri Hindus or Rohingyas[5]? [1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Kashmiri_Hindus https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_of_Kashmiri_Hindus [2]https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/208-temples-destroyed-in-kashmir-in-20-years-says-j-k-government.488457/&ved=2ahUKEwiKueLI9LTkAhUmhOAKHdb7AZgQFjACegQIDxAJ&usg=AOvVaw3WE1KoiPqrpal5K5fFkVwn https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/208-temples-destroyed-in-kash... [3]https://www.google.com/amp/s/arisebharat.com/2019/02/13/a-list-of-temples-destroyed-in-the-kashmir-valley-between-1986-1996/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/arisebharat.com/2019/02/13/a-li... [4]https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2019/08/workers-kashmir-told-leave-demography-fears-190825140146087.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2019... [5]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_conflict https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_conflict

jcranmer 7y ago
> If the behavior of Indian forces is really as bad as it is claimed then why no large scale migration of Kashmiri Muslims happened like it happened for Kashmiri Hindus or Rohingyas[5]? A plausible answer (I know not if this is true or not) is that the Indian security forces are preventing people from emigrating. This is why you don't see a massive exodus of Uighurs from Xinjiang, for example.
dang 7y ago
Please don't use HN for nationalistic flamewar. At least the parent comment had something to do with the topic. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20866359 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20866359 and marked it off-topic.
- ican1 7y ago
  How can the parent topic be something to do with the topic but this comment is not? How can one talk about the Kashmir conflict without discussing it's history? There's regularly discussions about various political/controversial topics in HN without them getting shut down. You are really showing your bias here, dang.