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3) I think the worry is China forcing Apple to produce this info (list of HK users with said app installed), not what Apple themselves would do with it. Maybe n

3) I think the worry is China forcing Apple to produce this info (list of HK users with said app installed), not what Apple themselves would do with it. Maybe not a dealbreaker, but something to consider...

cwyers 7y ago
I think China getting that information from Apple is sort of a second-order concern at this point. In a more stable situation, yeah, you don't want the police to have a reason to knock on your door. When you're gearing up to go protest in public and the cops are dropping tear gas on everybody, those sorts of lists are less important. Not saying that it doesn't matter, but there is no such thing as absolute security, it's a series of tradeoffs.
- phs318u 7y ago
  Keep in mind that Apple's iCloud services in China are not actually provided by Apple. They are provided by Cloud Big Data Industrial Development Co., Ltd., and allows Apple to, "continue to improve iCloud services in China mainland and comply with Chinese regulations". [0] This service even has different terms of service, than the standard iCloud offering (though I haven't done a diff to see what's changed). The effect of this is that the encryption keys for the service for Chinese users, are in the hands of a state-owned company (not Apple). I'm a big support of Apple's approach and ethics with respect to privacy generally, however if you're in China, or a citizen of China, then it's probably safe to assume that anything on or passing through iCloud, is fully accessible to the state, without requiring Apple's involvement (e.g. via subpoena). [0] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351
  - chkuendig 7y ago
    Anybody have some details on this? I always wondered how this is handled for Chinese going abroad or Foreigners traveling in China without sending the keys back and forth. Or do Chinese iCloud accounts still use the Chinese servers even when abroad while the western ones get to go through the great firewall for western iCloud?
    - bsaul 7y ago
      that is an extremely interesting question, both from a technical and juridical point of view. Hope someone will ask apple about this in a more official channel.
    - oarsinsync 7y ago
      This is effectively documented in the link provided: > If you are not a Chinese citizen residing in China mainland, you can edit the country or region setting of your Apple ID to reflect your current country or region and continue using iCloud under Apple's current terms and conditions.
  - oarsinsync 7y ago
    This only applies to users who have an Apple ID registered as being in China. Hong Kong residents are not impacted by this.
    - phs318u 7y ago
      For now. The broader question is, if the Chinese state can demand this, then what (other than popular opinion) is stopping other states (with sufficient clout to meddle in Apple's markets and/or operations) from demanding the same?
      - oarsinsync 7y ago
        Context of the conversation wasn't hypothetical future situations, but rather the present situation facing Hong Kong protesters. Given that the protests are about China's over-reach into Hong Kong rule of law, Apple making any changes in the immediate future to impact Hong Kong residents would be a very challenging decision to make. It would also be particularly difficult to enforce, given that Hong Kong exists on the outside of the Great Firewall, with the rest of the wider Internet.
  - trevyn 7y ago
    The company name is actually "Guizhou on the Cloud Big Data Industrial Development Co., Ltd." (I thought that was a joke/parody name, but it's actually true.)
- StavrosK 7y ago
  I disagree, hiding behind the anonymity of the crowd is critical in protests. Yes, they might catch a few people, but if you know for sure they'll just round everyone up later because they know exactly who was protesting, suddenly nobody wants to do it.

cwyers 7y ago

I think China getting that information from Apple is sort of a second-order concern at this point. In a more stable situation, yeah, you don't want the police to have a reason to knock on your door. When you're gearing up to go protest in public and the cops are dropping tear gas on everybody, those sorts of lists are less important. Not saying that it doesn't matter, but there is no such thing as absolute security, it's a series of tradeoffs.

phs318u 7y ago
Keep in mind that Apple's iCloud services in China are not actually provided by Apple. They are provided by Cloud Big Data Industrial Development Co., Ltd., and allows Apple to, "continue to improve iCloud services in China mainland and comply with Chinese regulations". [0] This service even has different terms of service, than the standard iCloud offering (though I haven't done a diff to see what's changed). The effect of this is that the encryption keys for the service for Chinese users, are in the hands of a state-owned company (not Apple). I'm a big support of Apple's approach and ethics with respect to privacy generally, however if you're in China, or a citizen of China, then it's probably safe to assume that anything on or passing through iCloud, is fully accessible to the state, without requiring Apple's involvement (e.g. via subpoena). [0] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208351
- chkuendig 7y ago
  Anybody have some details on this? I always wondered how this is handled for Chinese going abroad or Foreigners traveling in China without sending the keys back and forth. Or do Chinese iCloud accounts still use the Chinese servers even when abroad while the western ones get to go through the great firewall for western iCloud?
  - bsaul 7y ago
    that is an extremely interesting question, both from a technical and juridical point of view. Hope someone will ask apple about this in a more official channel.
  - oarsinsync 7y ago
    This is effectively documented in the link provided: > If you are not a Chinese citizen residing in China mainland, you can edit the country or region setting of your Apple ID to reflect your current country or region and continue using iCloud under Apple's current terms and conditions.
- oarsinsync 7y ago
  This only applies to users who have an Apple ID registered as being in China. Hong Kong residents are not impacted by this.
  - phs318u 7y ago
    For now. The broader question is, if the Chinese state can demand this, then what (other than popular opinion) is stopping other states (with sufficient clout to meddle in Apple's markets and/or operations) from demanding the same?
    - oarsinsync 7y ago
      Context of the conversation wasn't hypothetical future situations, but rather the present situation facing Hong Kong protesters. Given that the protests are about China's over-reach into Hong Kong rule of law, Apple making any changes in the immediate future to impact Hong Kong residents would be a very challenging decision to make. It would also be particularly difficult to enforce, given that Hong Kong exists on the outside of the Great Firewall, with the rest of the wider Internet.
- trevyn 7y ago
  The company name is actually "Guizhou on the Cloud Big Data Industrial Development Co., Ltd." (I thought that was a joke/parody name, but it's actually true.)
StavrosK 7y ago
I disagree, hiding behind the anonymity of the crowd is critical in protests. Yes, they might catch a few people, but if you know for sure they'll just round everyone up later because they know exactly who was protesting, suddenly nobody wants to do it.