7 ms·

> The conclusion of this WSJ piece [...] is that we need better media literacy. > My conclusion is the opposite: we need better reputational and accountability

by rntz 7y ago

> The conclusion of this WSJ piece [...] is that we need better media literacy. > My conclusion is the opposite: we need better reputational and accountability systems and institutions. I've noticed that on issues that provoke strong feeling, folks often put things in opposition that really aren't opposed. This is a great example. These aren't opposites. They're simply two different approaches to the same problem. They're not mutually exclusive in the least. Nothing about teaching people to think critically harms or opposes holding media institutions to account for what they say or vice versa. Anyway, I don't think more accountability for media institutions is a bad idea, but I can't help thinking it alone won't fix the problem. The internet isn't going away, and it's fundamentally a many-to-many medium. Unless some authority systematically censors and reviews public fora --- I'm talking about everyday conversations and posts on Facebook, reddit, chatrooms, HN, Slack --- we're not going to be able to go back to the days when fact-checked journalism could keep misinformation, propaganda, and conspiracy theorizing at bay. (Hell, I guess those days never existed, but I think these problems have gotten worse.) Perhaps the best point of comparison for the effect of the internet as a new medium is the invention of the printing press. Generally regarded as a good thing in the long run, but it led almost directly to centuries of religious warfare in Europe. Not a heartening thought.

dredmorbius 7y ago
My point is that: WSJ put the onus elsewhere than themselves. That this is a long-established tendency of the empowered. See Annie Leonard on "anti-littering" campaigns (responsibility dodging by manufacturers of disposable packaging and goods so packaged): http://www.worldwatch.org/system/files/AlterNet-SOW13-AL-102013.pdf http://www.worldwatch.org/system/files/AlterNet-SOW13-AL-102... (PDF). It's very much a blame-the-victim approach. That there is no mention at all of accountability for the distributors, amplifiers, curators, and promotors of disinformation. Once you start looking for such patterns, they become painfully apparent. I've taken to calling them out.
- 50656E6973 7y ago
  >Once you start looking for such patterns, they become painfully apparent. Wouldn't it be great if we could help train others to be able to do that too?
  - dredmorbius 7y ago
    It's taken me most of five decades to pick up the skill. That bodes poorly for generalised skillsets. There's a generalised rebuttal to calls for greater intelligence / education as a solution to problems: All the children aren't above average. And if your solution to some circumstance is to make them so, or pretend that they are, you are going to be having a bad time. I'm not against education. I'm against having it be the only suggested remedy. Particularly from a party with a vested interest in both deflecting responsibility and creating the problem in the first place.
    - popularwarfare 7y ago
      I dont know man, taking almost 50 years to learn basic rhetoric skills that should have been taught to you during high school english seems like a knockdown argument in favor of education.
      - dredmorbius 7y ago
        I may have been a particularly poor student, subject to a particularly poor education. Signs suggest neither lagged the median by much.
        bigfudge 7y ago
        Don’t be too hard on yourself. I get stung by the Guardian April fool story almost every year. It typically takes at least 2 paragraphs to spot what are obviously absurd stories. To me the April fool stories highlight the biggest issue with media corps... being normally-trustworthy actually makes them very powerful on the occasions when they are mistaken or misused.
atoav 7y ago
Furrhermore I’d argue that media literacy is a critical skill nowadays. However the conclusion is also true: there needs to be a national press agency which acts independently and is allowed to issue fines and force corrections on factually false statements. If a newspaper lies about something, they have to print the correction on the front page. If the front page has not enough space, tough luck.
- notduncansmith 7y ago
  This sounds like an initiative I’d hold signs for in the street, if there were an actual plan for it. How do we make sure this agency doesn’t become a cudgel for the government to wield for itself? Who gets to run this ministry of truth?
  - atoav 7y ago
    Obviously they could challenge such calls if they are sure they didn’t get it wrong and then it is a matter for the courts.

by rntz 7y ago

dredmorbius 7y ago

My point is that: WSJ put the onus elsewhere than themselves. That this is a long-established tendency of the empowered. See Annie Leonard on "anti-littering" campaigns (responsibility dodging by manufacturers of disposable packaging and goods so packaged): http://www.worldwatch.org/system/files/AlterNet-SOW13-AL-102013.pdf http://www.worldwatch.org/system/files/AlterNet-SOW13-AL-102... (PDF). It's very much a blame-the-victim approach. That there is no mention at all of accountability for the distributors, amplifiers, curators, and promotors of disinformation. Once you start looking for such patterns, they become painfully apparent. I've taken to calling them out.

50656E6973 7y ago
>Once you start looking for such patterns, they become painfully apparent. Wouldn't it be great if we could help train others to be able to do that too?
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  It's taken me most of five decades to pick up the skill. That bodes poorly for generalised skillsets. There's a generalised rebuttal to calls for greater intelligence / education as a solution to problems: All the children aren't above average. And if your solution to some circumstance is to make them so, or pretend that they are, you are going to be having a bad time. I'm not against education. I'm against having it be the only suggested remedy. Particularly from a party with a vested interest in both deflecting responsibility and creating the problem in the first place.
  - popularwarfare 7y ago
    I dont know man, taking almost 50 years to learn basic rhetoric skills that should have been taught to you during high school english seems like a knockdown argument in favor of education.
    - dredmorbius 7y ago
      I may have been a particularly poor student, subject to a particularly poor education. Signs suggest neither lagged the median by much.
      - bigfudge 7y ago
        Don’t be too hard on yourself. I get stung by the Guardian April fool story almost every year. It typically takes at least 2 paragraphs to spot what are obviously absurd stories. To me the April fool stories highlight the biggest issue with media corps... being normally-trustworthy actually makes them very powerful on the occasions when they are mistaken or misused.

atoav 7y ago

Furrhermore I’d argue that media literacy is a critical skill nowadays. However the conclusion is also true: there needs to be a national press agency which acts independently and is allowed to issue fines and force corrections on factually false statements. If a newspaper lies about something, they have to print the correction on the front page. If the front page has not enough space, tough luck.

notduncansmith 7y ago
This sounds like an initiative I’d hold signs for in the street, if there were an actual plan for it. How do we make sure this agency doesn’t become a cudgel for the government to wield for itself? Who gets to run this ministry of truth?
- atoav 7y ago
  Obviously they could challenge such calls if they are sure they didn’t get it wrong and then it is a matter for the courts.